Question about body soap pH level

[sovereign]

hey all.

i've never made soap before, and i'm going to try it out. the reason i'm doing so is that my skin has a problem with most soap. i have tried goats milk, all natural, beeswax, non-perfumed, moisturized, etc etc etc. there has been no rhyme or reason to my reason to soaps. sometimes perfume bothers me, sometimes not... sometimes soap "for sensitive skin" is okay, sometimes its not.

my next experiment will be to make my own soap. i need to make it have a low pH, as i believe my skin problems are due to the natural acids being washed away by soaps with high of a pH level.

does anyone have any suggestions on how i can make soap that has a lower pH level / more acidic than standard soaps?

maybe i can add lemon juice to my soap?

i want my soap to still be soap... not "cleanser". other than that, and the pH, i have no stipulations... i don't even care if its in bar form or liquid form.

 

[Stinkydancer]

The problem is that any soap whether liquid or solid made with lye has a built in high PH...this is a lot of the reason that some people can't use soap bars on their hair since the hair freaks out with a high ph.

Your only option for a lower PH is to do a cleanser with synthetic detergents. There are some out there that are very mild even for use as baby soap. You just want to stay away from SLS, SLES, ALS, etc...
DLS Mild comes to mind. The Herbarie is a great site for stuff like this.
I'm not a wiz at synthetic detergents but I have been checking them out for my hair.

The only other option- though the ph will still be high- is a pure castile soap- unscented- you can maybe get away with a Olive, Coconut blend if you wanted less slime and more bubbles. I used Castile on my kids when they were little and at about 6 months old- I added a bit of Coconut and Castor- it was 90% Olive, 5 Coconut, 5 Castor- super mild and bubbly after a long cure- you could hot process it and use it faster.

I hope this helps.

 

[sovereign]

Like i mentioned, i still want it to be soap.. so i still want to use lye. I just need to figure out how i can neutralize some of its base, by either adding something acidic, or watering it down with something neutral, like milk or water or oil. I'm looking at this for a soap recipe. If I reduce the amount of lye, will my soap still turn out correctly? Can i cut the lye in half, and just add more oil? Can i add lemon juice? Or will doing any of these things make my soap fail?

Oils:
24 ounces olive oil (not extra virgin)
24 ounces coconut oil
38 ounces vegetable shortening

Alkaline Solution:
12 ounces sodium hydroxide (lye). No longer readily available; can be purchased online (see external links). Do not use drain opener; the formulas have changed and are no longer suitable for soap. Or make your own lye solution.
32 ounces spring or distilled water

 

[sovereign]

here's another question... can i add salt to my soap, or will that cause my soap to fail?

 

[Stinkydancer]

Some people add salt to their lye water to harden their soap. It won't cause your batch to fail but I'm not sure it will do anything to the ph.

Not that I have tried- but I have read here and there- if you try to lower the ph of a bar soap- say with Citric acid or Borax (used in liquid soap)- the soap batch will fail but for the life of me I can't remember why. I think because if the ph gets to low- the bar soap will no longer be bar soap- it will be a thick sloppy soft mess. Don't quote me but it's something like this.

You can definitely use less lye through superfatting. I would superfat at 8% on a lye calculator. The thing that I would worry about there- is oil rancidity at an 8% superfat with shortening in the mix.

On a high oil rancidity risk I would superfat at 5. You could also try to prevent that by using a little Rosemary Extract.

There are also some people who believe that the low ph of goat milk will bring down the ph of the entire soap batch. I have never tested gm soap so I'm not sure if that's true or not since Lye is so alkaline.

It can't hurt to try using milk- the soap recipe you have there seems pretty mild.

You could also have a go at liquid soap- but the lowest ph I have seen on a true liquid soap is about 9 to 9.5.

 

[sovereign]

Thanks for all the info. I'll do some experimenting and will post my results.

Borax is a base... not as basic as lye, but i'd be better off diluting with milk, which i will try.

I will also try adding a small bit of lemon juice... I'll text the pH levels as I add a bit at a time, and only add enough to bring the pH down a bit, so as not to totally neutralize the lye.

Salt won't have any effect on my pH level, but I want to add it for its antiseptic quality... so, totally unrelated to my original post.

 

[Stinkydancer]

Thanks for all the info. I'll do some experimenting and will post my results.

Borax is a base... not as basic as lye, but i'd be better off diluting with milk, which i will try.

I will also try adding a small bit of lemon juice... I'll text the pH levels as I add a bit at a time, and only add enough to bring the pH down a bit, so as not to totally neutralize the lye.

Salt won't have any effect on my pH level, but I want to add it for its antiseptic quality... so, totally unrelated to my original post.

Borax just came to mind since some use it to neutralize liquid soap. I like Citric acid better though.

This sounds like an interesting experiment- would love to hear the results! Good luck- I hope you find something to make your skin happy, it sucks when it isn't.

 

[tlm884]

Honestly, I would stay away from borax. Borax has been shown to be pretty unhealthy stuff. Borax can cause seizure, peeling skin, kidney damage. It can irritate mucous membranes, and cause fertility problems. I don't know at what doses it does this at but I wouldn't recommend using it on your skin.

You can expierement with citric acid. However, the only way you will be able to lower the pH of soap will be by first cooking the soap through hot processing then adding the citric acid after the soap has been made. If its added before this, it will impede lyes ability to create soap.

Here is a link you may want to check out

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... impossible

 

[carebear]

soap, by its nature, is alkaline. while you can nudge it a tiny bit more toward neutral, it cannot be acidified or it falls apart into a sludge.

you can try a touch of citric acid.

diluting it won't change the pH.

 

[Fragola]

You need to take few steps in a planned manner to find out what works and what doesn't work for your skin.

Sensitive skin is very tricky - you could believe that you are being sensitive to one thing, while in fact you are sensitive to another.

It will be helpful finding out what your skin is sensitive to. Sometimes we get rashes from something we eat and soap only aggravates the problem.

You say that certain soaps are better for your skin. Which ones, what ingredients do they have listed ? Did you test their pH ?

There are a lot of experiments that you can do. I wish I could give you a recipe that works, but since I am still new at soaping, I can only share some of my experiments.

I will mention pH last, because it's a more complicated matter.

First thing to try is a soap with a higher superfat. "High" is defined differently on a recipe by recipe basis, for your recipe I would guess 15, but I am not experienced enough to make a good guess.

Some additives make a milder soap: I have tried psyllium (only once, plan to try again) and also i feel that a little salt adds to the mildness.

Also, I believe that a harder bar of soap will act more harshly on the skin.

In conclusion, I believe that you need a soap made with a softer oil (olive is a good example, with some additives or herbals that are good for your skin.

Also - to prevent wasting money, start your experiments with smaller batches - 1 lb or less.

Last thing to work on is the pH. Like I said, more complicated.

Like others have said, soap will always be alkaline.

In your place, first thing I would try and see how the skin reacts to an alkaline substance: baking soda is less alkaline, borax is more alkaline (and it won't harm you if used in small quantities for a short period of time).

Dissolve 1 teaspoon of either substance in a cup of water. Both are mild cleaning agents. Proceed carefully and apply few drops on your skin, and if you see no reaction, you can wash your hands or another area for few days.

Finally, if you plan to lower your soap's pH, I suggest to learn making liquid soap (using potassium hydroxide) instead. And buy yourself a pH meter. It's much easier to adjust pH with liquid soap.

You can use an acid to lower pH (citric acid, lemon juice, vinegar), but you need to add it after the soap is done. For solid soap, I guess you could melt it again and add your acid, and it's difficult to know how much to add. You probably need to figure that out through trial and error.

 

[fiddletree]

Finally, if you plan to lower your soap's pH, I suggest to learn making liquid soap (using potassium hydroxide) instead. And buy yourself a pH meter. It's much easier to adjust pH with liquid soap.

Exactly what I was going to say. If you need to lower the pH, you should do liquid soap, but even that has a limit as to how much it can be lowered (if someone knows to what extent, I'd actually love to know myself...). If it really is a problem with pH, then you probably shouldn't be using soap, but detergents. I have super sensitive skin, and some detergents and some fragrances give me problems. And I have a sister who breaks out in a rash when she is exposed to high levels of glycerin. You just need to figure out what your trigger is, because it can be just about anything. If there is no rhyme or reason to it, maybe it's not what you are bathing with but an environmental thing (I get skin reactions to certain weather, for example) or what you area eating.

 

[Stinkydancer]

Finally, if you plan to lower your soap's pH, I suggest to learn making liquid soap (using potassium hydroxide) instead. And buy yourself a pH meter. It's much easier to adjust pH with liquid soap.

Exactly what I was going to say. If you need to lower the pH, you should do liquid soap, but even that has a limit as to how much it can be lowered (if someone knows to what extent, I'd actually love to know myself...). If it really is a problem with pH, then you probably shouldn't be using soap, but detergents. I have super sensitive skin, and some detergents and some fragrances give me problems. And I have a sister who breaks out in a rash when she is exposed to high levels of glycerin. You just need to figure out what your trigger is, because it can be just about anything. If there is no rhyme or reason to it, maybe it's not what you are bathing with but an environmental thing (I get skin reactions to certain weather, for example) or what you area eating.

The lowest I have gotten my LS is 9.3 tested with a PH meter. I think on the Lovin Soap blog- she got hers down to a 9.2 with Citric Acid which is how I did mine. I have never used Borax but I think Citric probably lowers the ph better. It's gentler at least as well.
I think if you go any lower than that- the soap will separate into layers.
My Cream soap is currently at 9.5- no citric or anything- just alot of dilution.

 

[carebear]

borax is more of a buffer - not efficient for shifting the pH downward, in fact it can make it harder to move the needle.

 

[judymoody]

You say that most soap "bothers" your skin. What does that mean exactly? Does it feel dry and tight? Itchy? Break out into a rash?

I don't think you should fixate on the pH as the source of your skin irritation. Many "detergent bars" like Dove are more pH balanced than true soap and some people find them unpleasant to use for one reason or another.

If I were you, I'd perhaps start with a small recipe of plain Castille soap which is about as mild as it gets. 100% olive oil. No fragrance, no additives. Read up on how to make it with a water discount in order to speed curing time. Castille under the best of circumstances will take a few months to come into its own. If your skin is sensitive, maybe try a lye discount of 8%.

Then perhaps try soap recipes with olive oil plus one other oil at a time - coconut, palm, lard, whatever. It may be that you are sensitive to a particular kind of oil but you won't be able to discover what or which ones they are unless you go about this scientifically.

That's my 2 cents, for what it's worth. I hope you find a soap recipe that works for you. My daughter is prone to eczema and since she started using my soap, she hasn't had a problem since. I'm not making medical claims for my soap; nonetheless, it has worked for her.

 

[Soapy Gurl]

If you have never made soap you should start with an easy, reliable soap recipe. Don't try to change and experiment with things until you know exactly what you are doing. A nice basic recipe is 30% olive, 30% coconut and 30% palm the remaining 10% can be more olive oil or something like shea butter. Then you can start tinkering this way and that, more olive, more coconut, add castor and on and on. Start unscented so you know that the fragrance wasn't an issue. Sounds boring, but it would be a great basic place to start at, with a good basic recipe that should work well.