Please help me understand...

[josianeg]

I stick blended only by short busts and stopped at light trace, but quickly it was obvious that the batter was getting more and more “pudding like” by itself.

I had planned a secret hanger swirl and a simple swirl on the top. I did my best, but my best in the circonstances is pretty disappointing.

I had prepared everything in advance (people make fun of me because I do that when cooking too, but this is probably the Asperger and the lab girl in me) and “rehearsed” the steps I would have to do so I could work quickly when time came to execute them.

If someone can pinpoint the reason why this happened, I would be very thankful because I need to understand in order not to repeat the same mistakes.

Ok, so here is my recipe (I meant to make a facial soap, what do you think of it?):

I added 1 tsp of sugar ppo of sugar before adding the lye, dissolved a pinch of tussah silk right after adding the lye to the water and sodium lactate at 1 tsp ppo when the lye water was below 130F.

Before preparing the lye water, I had melted my butters and mixed them with the oils. When the lye water was down to 108F, I added it to the oils which were around 100F.

When I got light trace, I added a bit less than 1% w/w spearmint EO to the whole batter. I had read that spearmint wasn’t one of the accelerating EOs, but maybe this information was incorrect?

I divided the batter in 3 parts: one plain (115 g), one to which 1/8 tsp activated charcoal premixed in 1 tbsp almond oil was added (80 g) and one to which 5 ml rose clay premixed in 1 tbsp water was added (remainder of the batter).

I expected the batter with the clay to accelerate, but not the other two...

Yes, I have a lot of hard butters, but I thought a low INS meant that the trace was going to be slow? I actually tweaked the recipe until my INS was at least 136, because initially it was below that.

Gosh I hope it wasn’t false trace... the batter was thick but really smooth, it looked like the one I got when I used a FO that caused acceleration. IF it was false trace, how long before the oils and water separate? Should I already be able to tell tomorrow?

 

[Arimara]

It's not false trace and I'm less inclined to blame the EO either. INS is really unimportant for beginners; we generally suggest using more balanced recipes instead.

I can't speak for Kokum butter or grapeseed oil but I can say that you more than likely would have benefited with more soft oils for a batch to be more liquidy. The butters can speed up trace on their own, as can babassu, though the babassu was used at a percentage where it would not normally be a culprit. You could find another soft oil or add the kokum butter's valu to the avocado oil (grapeseed oil is known to lead to DOS).

 

[Susie]

I have had EOs from the same supplier act completely differently. The mints being the worst about soap on a stick. I would, however, consider using a less complex recipe/process until you have the issue nailed down. Consider making without EO/FOs, or using only 4-5 oils only to narrow down whether it was one of those, blend less, etc. Do ONE change at the time.

 

[lsg]

You might try stick blending to just the emulsion stage and then dividing the soap to be colored. Using more liquid oil and not so much hard oil and butter will give you more time to work.

 

[josianeg]

You could find another soft oil or add the kokum butter's valu to the avocado oil (grapeseed oil is known to lead to DOS).

Thank you for your answer! I wanted to have more soft oils, it’s just the INS that bothered me. Next time I’ll follow common sense rather than soap calc.

And yeah I would have used another soft oil (more avocado?), not grapeseed. I’m not sure what you mean in the bit I quoted from your message. Do you feel I have too much grapeseed and that my soap is likely to develop DOS? And what about the Kokum butter?

If so it’s a small batch for myself, therefore it wouldn’t be the end of the world, but is there any number indicator in soap calc that can let me know the likely hood of DOS? Linoleic + linolenic? I had 9 initially but I see I ended up with 12... I was too focussed on the darn INS.

I have had EOs from the same supplier act completely differently. The mints being the worst about soap on a stick. I would, however, consider using a less complex recipe/process until you have the issue nailed down. Consider making without EO/FOs, or using only 4-5 oils only to narrow down whether it was one of those, blend less, etc. Do ONE change at the time.

Good to know about mint... Yes, I agree with you for the “one change at a time part”. I usually stick with some CP recipes I’ve had success with, it was my first time using babassu (I always use CO at 20% or less) and not using any olive oil. I wanted this soap to be for my face, and I was worried about coconut and olive oil being too pore clogging. Next time, I’ll stick with a simpler recipe that I’ve had success with (I‘m a beginner but I’ve kept good notes about all recipe) and skip EO/FO, clay...

You might try stick blending to just the emulsion stage and then dividing the soap to be colored. Using more liquid oil and not so much hard oil and butter will give you more time to work.

I’m being honest when I say I barely stick blended... I only did short bursts for a total of less than 15-20 seconds... Never went so fast from no emulsion to light trace. I had meant to stop at emulsion, like you say. And yes, next time I’ll use a slower moving recipe, less hard butters and more liquid oils.

 

[amd]

I have 65% hard oils as well, and my recipe moves very fast unless I strictly control temps. (Lower = better. Around 70 seems to work well for me.) The sugar in the lye water also probably helped move things along a bit faster.

ETA: Also with that high % of hard oils, you can probably increase your water. I use 30% lye concentration. You'd be surprised what increasing from 33% lye concentration will do for your batter.

 

[josianeg]

Below are pictures of the 2 batches I made yesterday evening.

The light soap was the one I originally posted about. I wanted the surface to be swirled pink and white, but as you see the pink is barely visible so I probably didn’t use enough rose clay (I was so worried it would accelerate the recipe... and it wasn’t even a culprit). The lather (empty hand) is creamy and but very bubbly, but I expected that.

The dark soap is an attempt at the dancing funnel technique (it’s hidden underneath) but I only had funnel pitchers and no squeeze bottles so precision and dripping was an issue. The texture of the batter was right, however. It’s my first recipe with lard and, even though I’m feeling a bit torn about using animal fat, I must admit I really like the result. I guess there’s a reason why our ancestors made their soaps primarily with them.

I had 5 colors (black: activated charcoal, navy blue: indigo, green: chlorella, yellow-orange: annato, pink-red: madder) but on the top only 3 are visible. The blue is WAYYYY too dark, I used too much indigo and will use less next time. However, it does look blue and not gray, at least for now! I forced gel using a heating pad and the lather (hand with a blob of soap) already shows promise!

 

[Susie]

The properties of oils are different once they are saponified. So, if the description of an oil says it is comedogenic, don't assume the saponified oil will also be comedogenic.

Coconut oil, for example, makes the most oil stripping soap I have ever seen. It is the opposite of pore clogging.

ETA: Just remember that there are no hogs slaughtered strictly for their fat. Lard, as well as tallow, are strictly by-products of the meat industry. So, by using lard (which is the most similar to human fat), you are saving that from going to a landfill. As well as treating your skin to the most wonderful soap.

 

[josianeg]

I have 65% hard oils as well, and my recipe moves very fast unless I strictly control temps. (Lower = better. Around 70 seems to work well for me.) The sugar in the lye water also probably helped move things along a bit faster.

ETA: Also with that high % of hard oils, you can probably increase your water. I use 30% lye concentration. You'd be surprised what increasing from 33% lye concentration will do for your batter.

You’re right, I didn’t think about the sugar... but I suspected the “higher” soaping temperature had been a factor.

I just switched from using “water as % of oils” to “lye concentration”... Next time with high butter recipes I’ll try a 30% lye concentration.

The properties of oils are different once they are saponified. So, if the description of an oil says it is comedogenic, don't assume the saponified oil will also be comedogenic.

Coconut oil, for example, makes the most oil stripping soap I have ever seen. It is the opposite of pore clogging.

I remember reading about this... So CO for my next face soap, but what about the OO? Many people here with a susceptibility to acne say they can’t use OO on their face.

If you know of any oils I should avoid in face soap if I don’t want to clog my pores, that would be appreciated.

Thank you all for your input! This is very helpful. ❤ Gosh I love this forum.

 

[Susie]

YOU need to test what works for YOUR face. Once you have a problem with a soap, make the next soap without ONE of the oils. Keep repeating until you figure out what YOU are having an issue with. I use the same soap on my face as the rest of my body. No problem. But, I am not you. You have to go with what works for you.

 

[cmzaha]

The comedogenic testing was also discontinued several years ago as not being very reliable since it was done on rabbit ears. Unless it has been re-started again.

I agree with Amd about the 30% Lye Concentration and lower temps but I will also warn you to watch for false trace in the very beginning before the lye starts to react heat up. If this happens just stir through it.

With your Saturated: Unsaturated value of 46:54 you are really going to have a hard time slowing it down and may have to go with an even lower Lye concentration. My Vegan recipe has a Sat: Unsat value of 42:58 using palm and shea, co, pko as the sat oils and it still moves fast. Granted I use 40% but my Palmitic/Stearic values are close to your totals. If you truly want a slow-moving recipe an addition of even 25% lard will slow it considerably. OO will also slow down, I also forget that one because I do not use OO. I know some use Soy wax in vegan recipes but I do not know how it acts.

 

[josianeg]

Squeeeee !!! I think my dancing funnel pour worked!!!

Can’t wait to cut it! Can anyone remind me how long I should wait before cutting CP soap? The last batch I made was HP and I hadn’t done CP in a while.

 

[josianeg]

The comedogenic testing was also discontinued several years ago as not being very reliable since it was done on rabbit ears.[...]

If you truly want a slow-moving recipe an addition of even 25% lard will slow it considerably. OO will also slow down, I also forget that one because I do not use OO. I know some use Soy wax in vegan recipes but I do not know how it acts.

Rabbit ears!

Yeah, I work as a pharmacist and when we only have animal data we also consider them of little value.

As much as I dislike the concept of using animal fat, I loved the lard in the black recipe. It’s way too soon to tell, but of the scraps I used to make the lather tests, u actually prefer the dark soap. The other one seems like I makes my palms a little itchy, but it might be because the soap isn’t cured or that I’m sensitive to one of the way-too-many-new-things in the recipe. Lesson learned! At least I know neither of them are lye heavy, I (safely) did a zap test for both.

 

[CatahoulaBubble]

In regards to your trace, you might want to soap at a lower temp. The higher temp can speed trace. I try to soap between 80-90F. If I soap higher than that my light trace tends to speed up to a thick trace in no time.

 

[josianeg]

In regards to your trace, you might want to soap at a lower temp. The higher temp can speed trace. I try to soap between 80-90F. If I soap higher than that my light trace tends to speed up to a thick trace in no time.

Thank you so much for the input! I’m learning so much on this forum. Beats reading the Soap Queen’s blog!

 

[josianeg]

The properties of oils are different once they are saponified. So, if the description of an oil says it is comedogenic, don't assume the saponified oil will also be comedogenic.

Coconut oil, for example, makes the most oil stripping soap I have ever seen. It is the opposite of pore clogging.

ETA: Just remember that there are no hogs slaughtered strictly for their fat. Lard, as well as tallow, are strictly by-products of the meat industry. So, by using lard (which is the most similar to human fat), you are saving that from going to a landfill. As well as treating your skin to the most wonderful soap.

I know, and I’m all against waste, which is why I’m open to using it. However, I have vegan friends who would be horrified just at the thought of it. I guess It’s fine as long as I keep the not vegan soap for myself.

 

[Arimara]

Thank you for your answer! I wanted to have more soft oils, it’s just the INS that bothered me. Next time I’ll follow common sense rather than soap calc.

And yeah I would have used another soft oil (more avocado?), not grapeseed. I’m not sure what you mean in the bit I quoted from your message. Do you feel I have too much grapeseed and that my soap is likely to develop DOS? And what about the Kokum butter?

If so it’s a small batch for myself, therefore it wouldn’t be the end of the world, but is there any number indicator in soap calc that can let me know the likely hood of DOS? Linoleic + linolenic? I had 9 initially but I see I ended up with 12... I was too focussed on the darn INS...

The grapeseed amount was fine actually. the only reason I never used it was because it has a horribly short shelf life for my liking and I do not buy ROE to help my oils.

The properties of oils are different once they are saponified. So, if the description of an oil says it is comedogenic, don't assume the saponified oil will also be comedogenic.

Coconut oil, for example, makes the most oil stripping soap I have ever seen. It is the opposite of pore clogging.

ETA: Just remember that there are no hogs slaughtered strictly for their fat. Lard, as well as tallow, are strictly by-products of the meat industry. So, by using lard (which is the most similar to human fat), you are saving that from going to a landfill. As well as treating your skin to the most wonderful soap.

People where I am still like their lard and tallow but I have to go to a butcher to get me some tallow locally. Also, babassu oil is more cleansing than coconut oil in soap and worse in that I found it to be more gentle that coconut oil too. When I have some on hand, I tend to use less of that oil than coconut oil.

You’re right, I didn’t think about the sugar... but I suspected the “higher” soaping temperature had been a factor.

I just switched from using “water as % of oils” to “lye concentration”... Next time with high butter recipes I’ll try a 30% lye concentration.



I remember reading about this... So CO for my next face soap, but what about the OO? Many people here with a susceptibility to acne say they can’t use OO on their face.

If you know of any oils I should avoid in face soap if I don’t want to clog my pores, that would be appreciated.

Thank you all for your input! This is very helpful. ❤ Gosh I love this forum.

My skin personally hates lard when used on my face but my body is fine (I'm talking soap. my thought process is a little choppy). I've just taken a shine to using The Creme Shop's cleansers on my face. To date, only one batch of soap I have made I love for my face but I have yet to make attempts to making another batch yet.

View attachment 45953
Squeeeee !!! I think my dancing funnel pour worked!!!

Can’t wait to cut it! Can anyone remind me how long I should wait before cutting CP soap? The last batch I made was HP and I hadn’t done CP in a while.

Depends on the type of mold you are using, whether you gelled your soap or not, and your recipe. I'd probably try at the 12hr mark judging by the pic but I would not wait past a day due to your recipe (and that it looks like your soap gelled nicely).

 

[josianeg]

The grapeseed amount was fine actually. the only reason I never used it was because it has a horribly short shelf life for my liking and I do not buy ROE to help my oils.


People where I am still like their lard and tallow but I have to go to a butcher to get me some tallow locally. Also, babassu oil is more cleansing than coconut oil in soap and worse in that I found it to be more gentle that coconut oil too. When I have some on hand, I tend to use less of that oil than coconut oil.


My skin personally hates lard when used on my face but my body is fine (I'm talking soap. my thought process is a little choppy). I've just taken a shine to using The Creme Shop's cleansers on my face. To date, only one batch of soap I have made I love for my face but I have yet to make attempts to making another batch yet.


Depends on the type of mold you are using, whether you gelled your soap or not, and your recipe. I'd probably try at the 12hr mark judging by the pic but I would not wait past a day due to your recipe (and that it looks like your soap gelled nicely).

If I wait more than a day I might have trouble cutting it, you mean?

I don’t know why, I vaguely remembered I had to wait at least 24-48h before unmolding and cutting CP soap.

You wrote: “Also, babassu oil is more cleansing than coconut oil in soap and worse in that I found it to be more gentle that coconut oil too. When I have some on hand, I tend to use less of that oil than coconut oil.”

There might be a typo because I don’t understand. Babassu is more cleansing AND more gentle than CO?

 

[Arimara]

If I wait more than a day I might have trouble cutting it, you mean?

I don’t know why, I vaguely remembered I had to wait at least 24-48h before unmolding and cutting CP soap.

You wrote: “Also, babassu oil is more cleansing than coconut oil in soap and worse in that I found it to be more gentle that coconut oil too. When I have some on hand, I tend to use less of that oil than coconut oil.”

There might be a typo because I don’t understand. Babassu is more cleansing AND more gentle than CO?

Again it looked like your soap gelled. Those colors were vivid on my monitor and the soap looks like it is a slab instead of a loaf. Because of the recipe you posted, I suggested 24hrs. It really is a learning curve to determine when to cut your soap and since I'm a bit further south from you and on the coast, my experience cutting may or may not help you too much.

As for the babassu- it's a deceptive soap oil. It is more cleansing than coconut oil but for my skin, it was never as harsh-feeling at higher percentages as coconut oil is. the only reason I found that out was becuase I found myself constantly clipping hangnails while using a babassu based soap that was a little higher in the cleansing level. You can also see for yourself if you run it through a soap calculator and compare babassu to coconut and palm kernel flakes. Keep in mind, the soap calculators only keep tabs on the major fatty acids found in soaping oils. They don't take to consideration any of the lesser ones that may be found in them.

 

[atiz]

It is a really good-looking soap!
I have a somewhat similar recipe (CO instead of babassu, but have the same hard butters and oils). I have to be very careful with it not to trace fast -- as others said, the cooler the better. I have also found silk accelerating a little bit.