Please help me to explain to people why FO is used instead of EO

[DeeAnna]

"...Lye made from wood ash is potassium hydroxide...."

Actually it's going to be mostly potassium carbonate, possibly with some sodium carbonate depending on the vegetable matter that you used to make the ashes. Wood ash lye can be converted to the hydroxide by reacting the carbonate solution with lime.

Back to answering the OPs question:

I'm in the camp of those who use mostly FOs in soap, but I often use EOs in leave-on products. I use EOs in my shave soap too because I like how EOs work in that type of product. The wide variety of FOs to choose from and the (usually) lower cost of FOs make it a no brainer for me to use them in soap.

I too have gotten the slumped shoulders and the disappointed "oh" from a few "crunchy granola" friends when I use something in my products that they don't think is crunchy enough -- FOs and EDTA in soap and a real emulsifier in lotion rather than beeswax and borax come to mind. (My family knows just how good they've got it -- I get no complaints from them!)

I too have yet to find a way of dealing with it that works. I've come to the conclusion I'm not going to convince someone to abandon their opinion that my stuff isn't "natural" enough to suit them. Opinions like this are knee-jerk reactions, not thoughtfully reasoned-out decisions. So .... mostly I just smile, politely answer any questions with short factual answers, and move on down the conversational road. I just cannot wrap my mind around being put in the position of feeling that I need to meet someone else's philosophical expectations. If that's how they feel, then don't take my soap ... they can make it themselves!

That said, if someone asked me as a favor to use EOs in soap, I'd do it for a good friend or close family member. It would sure be nice if they would foot the bill for the extra cost, as others have suggested.

 

[Trix]

For me, i have also always preferred FO's in my soap rather than EO's for many reasons.
When I was buying the soap many years ago, someone explained to me that the scent won't always last or develop properly if it was an EO.
Besides soap is a wash off product, so its not like any of the eo's benefits remain.
I like eo's in my face masks, and cleansers and massage oils as i inow they work there....but out of my soap.
With soap I'm much more concerned with which carrier oils were used if im looking for benefits, or too make sure its not too drying, than with how it smells.

 

[new12soap]

"Fragrance oils are designed, manufactured, and tested to be skin-safe. Many of them are made with essential oils. But unfortunately, essential oils are unregulated and you never really know what the strength is. Some are sold as 'full strength' but have been diluted. Many are extracted with solvents, so that's a concern. A lot of them have medicinal properties and can cause severe reactions. Bottom line: I use fragrance oils because I believe they are safer."

Done.

I would not offer to make soap for them if they provide the EO, but I would offer them unscented versions.

HTH

 

[happygoluckyfarms]

Wow! You all have armed me with quite the arsenal! Thank you for the help. I will try giving the information in the way you suggested. I will resist the temptation to get into debates with people about it and I will definitely ask them to buy the EOs that they want me to use.

I love how smart you folks are. Thanks again!

This is a good example of why I don't like the term, 'natural' and why I never, ever use the term when referring to my handmade soap.

If one really thinks about it, the soap we make, even if it's unscented and uncolored, is not natural. After all, where can one find the kind of soap we make in nature? One can't. We have to use ingredients that have been processed (9 times out of 10 I'll wager, chemically so), and then we have to put it through another chemical process (albeit a simple one) to turn the ingredients into soap. Even EOs are processed. The plants, roots or seeds, although natural, all have to go through an extraction process to separate out their oils, and oftentimes, that extraction is an un-natural, chemical one.

I believe we've all been sold a bill of goods with the term, 'natural'. We've all been conditioned somehow to believe it's something that it is not. It's nothing but a 'buzzword' to me that's chalk-full of nothing but a bunch of wishful thinking, and truly has no real meaning. And the marketing people shamelessly play on that to the hilt.

Sorry- I do tend to go off on a tangent over the term, 'natural'.

I personally don't use EOs in my soap, except for the rare times I use orange oil or mint. I look at EOs as being medicinal, and they are very precious to me in that regard because it oftentimes takes tons of plant material just to extract a few ounces of the oil. These are just my own personal feelings, but the way I feel about it is that using them in my soap would be akin to me washing my car with something as precious as mother's milk or something. They are just too dear for me to feel good about using them in a wash-off product. If I'm going to use them at all, I want to use them in something that I feel will be of the most benefit.

I don't know if that helps at all, but that's one soap-maker's opinion.


IrishLass

I member thought about how many plants it takes to make an EO. I have one friend who would be convinced with that argument alone. Thanks.

Just wanted to chime in here..Irish Lass's comment about EO's taking a huge amount of plant material is true...and while most of us conjure up images of a French lavender field there are EO's like sandalwood that are harvested from the natural environment and demand can't keep up with supply so these trees are harvested surreptitiously,illegally take your pick with oftentimes no thoughts towards maintaining a viable population in the wild...it's not unlike the controversy surrounding palm oil..a natural environment is being altered to supply our needs...(embrace the lard!)
With the new formulations of phthalate free FO's I feel comfortable in using those...I do wonder if people question what's in their perfumes/colognes/after shaves and deodarants as much....
Soap on!

It seems like people rarely think about perfumes and deodorants as much. One can drive oneself crazy thinking about all possible sources of contamination or possible carcinogens I the things we use. The same coworker who wanted the baby scented laundry soap uses fabric softener. I suggested that she looks into what's in fabric softness. Asked her to google phthalate.

I'm not sure you can. At least to people who already have made up their mind.

It is mental conditioning. In the same way that people assume that fat is the worst thing you can eat. Well those that know are aware that fat isn't bad at all. Things like egg yolk have been vilified in favor of liquid diets, etc...Nowadays wiser people are starting to see that fats (the right sort) are actually decent and good to have.

It takes years for information like this to trickle down to the masses, if ever.

I do wonder for example how bad things like aspartame is. It is the most heavily tested food additive on earth and very little has come up in the way of side effects.

I'll hold my hand up and say I'd instantly think a product using preservatives was bad until I actually did some research and realized that the alternative is far worse.

Most people's final decision is done with their wallet. You could use the argument that since soaps are washed off it makes financial sense to give people a delicious smell they enjoy during bath/shower time and then save the essential oils for the nice creams/balms your put on afterward.

Good luck.

Ferris.

I don't get me started with the fat argument. When I first discovered how I could maintain a lower body weight by ditching the low fat diet, I was so excited that I shared it with everyone I knew. I tried telling them what works for me, how filling it is, how great I feel, and how good my food tastes. People hear me but promptly disregard what I am telling them. I have purchased books that reference studies on the topic, people read it and promptly do the opposite. All the wile struggling to keep weight off. I have stopped saying anything. when they give me compliments on my figure I just say "thank you".

"

I too have gotten the slumped shoulders and the disappointed "oh"

I too have yet to find a way of dealing with it that works. I've come to the conclusion I'm not going to convince someone to abandon their opinion that my stuff isn't "natural" enough to suit them. Opinions like this are knee-jerk reactions, not thoughtfully reasoned-out decisions. So .... mostly I just smile, politely answer any questions with short factual answers, and move on down the conversational road. I just cannot wrap my mind around being put in the position of feeling that I need to meet someone else's philosophical expectations. If that's how they feel, then don't take my soap ... they can make it themselves!

That said, if someone asked me as a favor to use EOs in soap, I'd do it for a good friend or close family member. It would sure be nice if they would foot the bill for the extra cost, as others have suggested.

I need to evolve to this stance. I guess I still want to convince people that things aren't what they seem. But I will try to let go of this notion.

Jstar ou process your own lye? Yes

You grow, distill/express all your own EO's? Yes and what I don't I order organic through jedwards

You grow your own olive trees, collect the olives and express the oil? I buy local fresh pressed organic olive oil .

The butters..do you also grow those trees or shrubs, collect the beans, berries etc and express the butters/oils yourself? I buy them organic from jedwards

So just incase you don't know no chemical processes are allowed in any organic products .
I do this because I wanted a 100 percent pure organic ingredients because yes I am one of those hippy people in California and want my life chemical free . Its not for everyone but myself and my customers like it ! You like fragrance oils that's fine I have nothing against them . I also make every meal from scratch too , its a life choice and we are happy !

I think I was misquoted. I didn't say that none of them stick. I said: They should also know that EOs don't "stick" as well as most FOs and they should then make the choice. With CP particularly, many EOs don't tend to stick as well as FOs.

Some of those EOs you listed are not great safe for skin in large amounts. So that is important to tell people who want a certain fragrance from EOs.

The eo's that aren't good in large quanties would be the high notes and so are used in very little amounts ! And I do only cp and they are fine ! Not wanting to argue but I have making them for 10 years its not easy but worth while ! Soap making is about loving what you do . I love making soap and using eo's I feel I have more freedom to create . If you love the way you do it then that's all that matters .

 

[JayJay]

"Fragrance oils are designed, manufactured, and tested to be skin-safe. Many of them are made with essential oils. But unfortunately, essential oils are unregulated and you never really know what the strength is. Some are sold as 'full strength' but have been diluted. Many are extracted with solvents, so that's a concern. A lot of them have medicinal properties and can cause severe reactions. Bottom line: I use fragrance oils because I believe they are safer."

Done.

I would not offer to make soap for them if they provide the EO, but I would offer them unscented versions.

HTH

I should print this out and put it on an index card!

I'm sorry I don't have the time to help you create an exact response for answering these people. And , I think it's going to be difficult convincing them that "natural" eo'so aren't always the better choice until they do their own research.

Essential oils contain powerful things.....some are strong enough to kill bacteria and viruses when used at certain strengths. Casually tossing them into body products with the assumption that natural is always safer can and has injured people......and not because of allergies.

Two real life examples of people I personally know:

A doterra salesperson taught the cupping method to my coworker; put a drop or two on your palm, rub hands together, hold over your face and inhale. Without realizing it, her hand touched her eyelid, blinking spread it into her eye which sent her to the ER and months later is still dealing with it.

A friend with a small cut on her leg Googled essential oils to use to prevent infection and found
oregano oil mixed in a carrier would work. Uh...it literally burned a hole in her skin and tried to wash it off. (Some eos should not be washed with water, but oil instead). She was in pain for hours and ended up at an urgent care.

Wish I could invite you here to see the top of my wooden kitchen table which is pitted with dents because I forgot to NOT put eos on plastic or wooden surfaces.

You did know to not measure eos into plastic cups, right? For that matter, you can arrange a demonstration for your doubtful friends....show them what happens when rosemary eo sits on a wood surface, or citrus eo in a plastic cup - especially Styrofoam.

I may be wrong here, but the research I've found makes me believe that fragrance oils go through more safety tests and regulations than essential oils.

You've probably read it here already, but ricin is a natural substance, but that doesn't make it safe!

Scary stuff. I will tey to remember these as well.

Maybe something like "fragrance oils are specially formulated and tested to survive the soap making process. Essential oils are not as reliable."

Nice!

I make all my own ingredients in my soap or watch the process in which made as the case with my lye . I watched the process with ashes and its pretty natural . I also use only eo's with no problems and its great for a lot of skin conditions like exema (which my family has) . So my soap contains nothing un natural in them , lye , butters , olive oil and natural colorants like beet root power or orange peel plus my essential oils . So its 100% possible to make a natural bar of soap if your method works for you that's awesome but mine works well for me

Wow- do you sell your soap? How long does it take from start to finish? How do you get to monitor the production of your ingredients? I hope you don't mind all the questions but it sounds like you have quite an elaborate set up and I am curious about how you do it.

 

[kumudini]

I think it would do a lot of good to actually think for yourself, why you want to use what you are using. Consider all the view points expressed here, may be do your own research on both EOs and FOs, find the pros and cons, cost efficiency, environmental issues, whatever is more important to you. Once you've convinced yourself it would be much easier to explain your decision to others whether they will be convinced or not is a different issue, not in your hands.

I didn't find EO use to be dangerous. With any EO or FO, you have to know before hand what's the safe usage rate, whether they are body safe and such. As long as you are cautious, there is no danger, only a possibility of allergy for some users.
I initially only bought EOs, but then, like IL, I felt those are too precious to be used in a wash off product. So now, I'm looking to buy FOs but since there's so much choice and so much FO use apparently relies on luck, I'm taking it slow with my FO purchase, but I will get to a place where most of my soaps will be scented with FOs.

 

[Yooper]

Maybe consider offering your friends/family unscented versions?

I know it's strange at first, because everything is scented usually, but I have found that I LOVE the smell of unscented soap. I make beer soap as well as milk soaps and regular soaps, and they are pretty darn nice unscented!

My salt soap is stark white, and unscented. It smells a little like soap, but otherwise it's totally and completely scent-free. It's wonderful!

 

[not_ally]

I actually really like the cleanness/pureness of an unscented soap too. I don't make many of them, just for my sister - b/c she is is sensitive to artificial scents/FO's, so for her it is unscented and EO's only - but it always surprises me - each time - when I realize how nice soap smells just by itself.

 

[JayJay]

Which kinds of soap do you like unscented?

I've tried my sensitive/dry skin soap unscented and all could smell in the shower was lard. Most of my soaps have lard in them (thanks Susie) I know that some people like the scent of lard soaps. But it's not my favorite smell. I think that they smell nice under another scent if that makes sense. It contributes something nice as an undernote. (I think I just made up a word).

 

[not_ally]

I use a basic recipe which includes lots of lard, b/w 60 and 75%, usually, w/the rest made up of castor, olive and coconut. I add stuff to make it lather, deal w/hard water, and harden the soap on cutting (I use aloe for liquid, EDTA, sodium lactate and sugar solution, they all have their own purposes, plus add to lather.) And then sometimes other stuff as well, usually cucumber or avocado purees, or other milks in place of the CM sometimes. So it is a mix, but it always smells nice unscented, at least to me. I know that I've read here that there are people who are really sensitive to animal fats and can smell them even after cure, but I cannot, at all. The soap just smells really clean.

I actually keep a bar or two of the unscented stuff at the kitchen sink to wash my hands when I am feeding my dogs, I have read that they are are extraordinarily sensitive to scent, so I don't want any fragrance on my hands when I deal with their food. Although they are little piggies, it is probably over-cautious

 

[Jstar]

I make all my own ingredients in my soap or watch the process in which made as the case with my lye . I watched the process with ashes and its pretty natural . I also use only eo's with no problems and its great for a lot of skin conditions like exema (which my family has) . So my soap contains nothing un natural in them , lye , butters , olive oil and natural colorants like beet root power or orange peel plus my essential oils . So its 100% possible to make a natural bar of soap if your method works for you that's awesome but mine works well for me

You process your own lye?

You grow, distill/express all your own EO's?

You grow your own olive trees, collect the olives and express the oil?

The butters..do you also grow those trees or shrubs, collect the beans, berries etc and express the butters/oils yourself?

The powders, do you also grow the trees and plants, dry, and grind these powders yourself?

Im thinking no, but I could be wrong....

More than likely {unless Im wrong of course} you are purchasing already 'processed' ingredients like the rest of us..some of which are 'chemically processed' which is not 'naturally occurring' in nature.

Moving along...

I prefer to use FO's because of price and the availability of so many different scents that are found nowhere in nature. I dont use many EO's, but what I do use, goes into products that aren't wash off.

Im going to agree with the rest...if the person wants EO's, let them know they can purchase the EO's and you will be happy to make them soap with it..otherwise offer them unscented or FO's..or none at all

ETA: I also don't tell people its 'all natural'..I prefer to say 'handmade'

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Jstar ou process your own lye? Yes

You grow, distill/express all your own EO's? Yes and what I don't I order organic through jewards

You grow your own olive trees, collect the olives and express the oil? I buy local fresh pressed organic olive oil .

The butters..do you also grow those trees or shrubs, collect the beans, berries etc and express the butters/oils yourself? I buy them organic from jewards

So just incase you don't know no chemical processes are allowed in any organic products .
I do this because I wanted a 100 percent pure organic ingredients because yes I am one of those hippy people in California and want my life chemical free . Its not for everyone but myself and my customers like it ! You like fragrance oils that's fine I have nothing against them . I also make every meal from scratch too , its a life choice and we are happy !

For me, and I know I risk opening the can of worms further still, it still doesn't make your soap natural - because YOU made it.

Now, if the water was to seep through the ashes and the olives were to weep their oil or be squeezed in the course of nature and these two just happened to come together - THAT is a natural soap, as no person had a hand in it.

A birdhouse can hardly be called natural even if it was made from wood with wooden nails, even though wood is natural, because someone had to make it. The end result itself is not found in nature, it has to be made.

While your soap might be made with all natural ingredients, it is not in itself natural.

 

[TVivian]

"And want my life chemical free" haha... Oh boy.

 

[not_ally]

Jstar ou process your own lye? Yes

You grow, distill/express all your own EO's? Yes and what I don't I order organic through jedwards

You grow your own olive trees, collect the olives and express the oil? I buy local fresh pressed organic olive oil .

The butters..do you also grow those trees or shrubs, collect the beans, berries etc and express the butters/oils yourself? I buy them organic from jedwards

So just incase you don't know no chemical processes are allowed in any organic products .
I do this because I wanted a 100 percent pure organic ingredients because yes I am one of those hippy people in California and want my life chemical free . Its not for everyone but myself and my customers like it ! You like fragrance oils that's fine I have nothing against them . I also make every meal from scratch too , its a life choice and we are happy !

At the risk of repeating what has already been said here, we ALL make our own soap because we think it is better than store bought stuff. The "natural" thing is part of that, but it is a spectrum. No one, including you, can make completely "natural" soap because no one in this country - and probably any other - can purchase ingredients that are completely unprocessed. I have no idea who Jedwards is, perhaps they are an excellent purveyor, but they have some kind of process that you are not directly involved in overseeing.

Lots of people here stick to EO's. Lots use only FOs. Probably most do a mix. But it is unrealistic and untrue to claim that anyone can make a totally "natural" soap, if that has any objectively definable meaning.

 

[happygoluckyfarms]

Natural IE: no chemicals that's it you mean to tell me because I go pick a vegetable from my garden and cook it and eat it , it wasn't natural or if juice an apple its not natural . Yes it is no chemicals are used in the making of anything there for its a natural product made from nature and no chemicals were used to extract it . So where can you say its not natural . NOW KAYTLIN JENNER THATS NOT NATURAL LOL ! So I need to say to you guys I have a chemical free organic soap then seems silly !

 

[not_ally]

I'm afraid your response was somewhat unintelligible, so I don't understand it. If you could spell it out very clearly, it would be better.

ETA: Also, please do not make homophobic/gender/sexuality based remarks, they are against the TOS. And odious, at least to some of us, as well.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

'll use a different example.

You have apples and corn and chickens and cows and all the things that you need to have the ingredients for an apple pie. Super - they are all natural. You make an apple pie, then it is not natural as you made it.

Your soaps as you make them do not occur in nature. They are not natural.

Of course, the larger issue is that there is no real meaning to the word 'natural' anymore and so people say "to me natural means this........." So it can end up like a rich man and a pauper discussing exactly how much money can be considered "a lot of money"

 

[Jstar]

Oh my..dont even get me started on 'organics'

I grow my own veggies..they grow naturally all by themselves..all I do is stick a seed in the ground and sling some water at them...but they do their veggie thing all by themselves..I dont use pesticides so no chemicals in them 'from me'...just whatever happens to be lingering around in the dirt {um, yea..dont get me started on those chemicals falling from the sky either}

Thats natural. If I grind them up and slap em in soap however, thats 'homemade soap with homegrown pureed veggies'...THAT does NOT occur in nature...otherwise Id be out picking me some veggie soap everyday hahahaha

Seriously, its great you dont want chemicals in anything..sadly they are everywhere..and I do mean everywhere...so like the rest of us, even if you grow everything yourself, you're going to get chemicals from somewhere..we all just do the best we can to make products that are as safe as we can.

Anyway, you can't state that you have complete natural soap because thats technically not possible...soap does not grow on trees. {neither does money for that matter..Dang!}

Oh, and for what its worth, Jedwards is an 'Importer'/Wholesale/Distributor with heavy emphasis on the word 'importer'.

 

[FerrisWheel]

I don't get me started with the fat argument. When I first discovered how I could maintain a lower body weight by ditching the low fat diet, I was so excited that I shared it with everyone I knew. I tried telling them what works for me, how filling it is, how great I feel, and how good my food tastes. People hear me but promptly disregard what I am telling them. I have purchased books that reference studies on the topic, people read it and promptly do the opposite. All the wile struggling to keep weight off. I have stopped saying anything. when they give me compliments on my figure I just say "thank you".

When taking advise. I always take it off people who can either do something I want to do or have achieved something I want to achieve. I hear/see people who know sod all dishing out all kinds of advise. I knew of a guy who to be fair to him is huge and he told someone that all the exercise he was doing was bad for his heart. I was actually stunned.

 

[Jstar]

Im not a doctor, but I do know that being overweight puts more of a strain on your heart..and for someone who is obese I would imagine it wouldn't be good to do alot of exercise at one time..