Ph 14 Soap Paste would like to save any ideas please?

[NicLod]

Hi Everyone
Beginner soap maker here.
This is my third batch.
Having so much fun and learning lots.

WHAT I DID THAT MIGHT HAVE CAUSED THE ISSUE
1- Swapped out 80g of the castor oil for coconut oil as I didn't have enough castor
2- Doubled the recipe
3- Cooked it too hot so it volcanoed

Most of the batch turned out well. (see pic 1)
But I was left with a thick, creamy top which I separated out

I thought I might have not doubled (couldn't be sure) so added 149g lye to 597 distilled water to the separated out past
Now I have a beautiful creamy thick liquid soap getting clearer as it cooks which is PH14 (see pic 2+3)

ORIGINAL RECIPE (which I doubled)
700g total oil batch
20% lye concentration for the lye solution (this dictates the water amount in the recipe)
(1% superfat calculated into the recipe)
489g olive oil (70%)
140g castor oil (20%)
70g coconut oil (10%)
597g distilled or demineralised water (boiled filtered tap water can be used but your soap may not be clear)
149g potassium hydroxide (90% KOH - more details about that below)

Any help to fix this part of the batch would be much appreciated.

Kindly
Nicola

 

[NicLod]

....wondering if the volcano which happened very early created a false trace?

 

[Servant4Christ]

This is definitely not my area of expertise and hopefully one our liquid soapmaking gurus will pop in to help you today. Members who come to mind that may be your best source are @IrishLass and @DeeAnna .

First thought I had is: Did you rerun what you actually changed your recipe to into a lye calculator? Castor and coconut may have different enough SAP values to throw off your needed amount of lye.

If I'm reading correctly, you then added more lye and water because of the separation. Did you add this to the full batch or only the part that separated out? This info will be important for anyone here who can help you troubleshoot.

One option to save the soap might be to add a citric acid solution a wee bit at a time to neutralize any additional lye. I know this works for a negative superfat liquid soap, but I'm not sure if it works in your situation where you may not have actually reached trace.

 

[NicLod]

Hi

I only added it to the separated-out batch.
I hear what you're saying about the different SAP values and think you're right.
It's difficult because the volcano process throws another variable in.

I have now added:
- 578g oil (coconut and olive) to = 33% of total paste weight as was recommended in another thread with PH14
- 350 ml Distilled Water
- 20 g citric acid

It's now a very creamy honey consistency and still testing PH14
The strange thing is that so much of the original batch is fine.

It looks so beautiful and is a lot to throw away. I like a challenge but because I am unsure if this part has it's tricky to know how to approach it. I fixed my last batch by tinkering with it, this one has me stumped.

Thanks again for your help.
Could I ask the people you suggested directly? or is that not done here

Kindly
Nicola

 

[NicLod]

... wondering if it can reach trace now?

 

[DeeAnna]

This whole thread is difficult for me to follow. The main idea I'm getting is you made KOH soap but when it didn't work the way you thought it should, I gather you added even more KOH but didn't make a reasoned choice about how much to add.

The essential solution to the problem of too much lye in soap is this: Give the alkali something to saponify with -- in other words, add fat to react with the extra alkali.

The pH is utterly useless for knowing if the soap has excess lye or not. Your soap might indeed have an excess of KOH, but pH alone can't tell you that, even if the test strips you're using are actually accurate for this purpose. Instead of trying to make pH do a job it's not capable of doing, you instead need to do a very cautious zap test to verify if the soap is lye heavy or not. Or you need to learn how to do a test for total alkalinity so you can obtain a useful value for the amount of excess alkalinity in the soap.

You unfortunately used a whopping 1400 g of fat in this batch. That's a lot for an untested recipe, IMO. Maybe next time give some thought to a considerably smaller batch size while you learn? I advocate using only about 300 g total fat when testing a new KOH recipe. If something goes wrong when making the batch or if the soap isn't nice to use, it's not such a heartbreak to discard a small batch.

 

[AliOop]

Thank you for posting your entire recipe and process, as that is a big help. But... I have to be honest, you did so many things to this batch that it's very difficult to untangle. Please know that I don't say any of this to be mean, but it is best to be honest about what's gone wrong.

First, it sounds like you swapped out oils without running the new recipe through a soap calculator to get the correct amount of KOH. Please be aware that the amount of lye required to make soap (known as the SAP value) is not generic based solely on the weight of the oil, but is specific to each different oil. So you can't swap 80g of this for 80g of that - you must run the revised recipe through the soap calculator to get the correct amount.

Second, you took a portion of the batch and added a LOT more KOH to it, almost certainly creating a very lye-heavy batch.

Third, the paper pH strips are not accurate enough for testing soap. Even if you want to use them, dunking the test strip into the soap isn't going to work, either. Whether you use paper strips or a pH meter, you need to make a 10% solution of soap in distilled water to get a proper reading. Just know that the pH number doesn't tell you anything about whether the product is lye heavy or not - those are two different things. For now, I'd forget about pH testing and focus on learning how to consistently make LS. It's not as easy as bar soap, in my opinion.

My conclusion: knowing how to test and fix liquid soap isn't that simple even without all of the above. Although I rarely will throw out a batch of soap, because you are new to this, and so many things were done incorrectly, I'm going to recommend that you toss this one. Start over with a small batch - no doubling! - and put the exact recipe into the soap calculator. Then follow it exactly.

If you run into any trouble, please come back and ask questions before you try to fix things. That allows us to help you before things have gone too far. We really do want to help you and see you have good success with this!

EDIT: sorry, I must have been typing while DeeAnna posted, so please excuse any duplication.

 

[NicLod]

Ok so i have now added 75g of citric acid and it's about Ph 8
Thinner and very milky
Performs like liquid soap, not great lather but ok.
Should I add a bit of KOH to get it to Ph 9 or ????
Is it actually liquid soap with that deep milkyness...

 

[NicLod]

Ok so i have now added 75g of citric acid and it's about Ph 8
Thinner and very milky
Performs like liquid soap, not great lather but ok.
Should I add a bit of KOH to get it to Ph 9 or ????
Is it actually liquid soap with that deep milkyness...

Thank you for posting your entire recipe and process, as that is a big help. But... I have to be honest, you did so many things to this batch that it's very difficult to untangle. Please know that I don't say any of this to be mean, but it is best to be honest about what's gone wrong.

First, it sounds like you swapped out oils without running the new recipe through a soap calculator to get the correct amount of KOH. Please be aware that the amount of lye required to make soap (known as the SAP value) is not generic based solely on the weight of the oil, but is specific to each different oil. So you can't swap 80g of this for 80g of that - you must run the revised recipe through the soap calculator to get the correct amount.

Second, you took a portion of the batch and added a LOT more KOH to it, almost certainly creating a very lye-heavy batch.

Third, the paper pH strips are not accurate enough for testing soap. Even if you want to use them, dunking the test strip into the soap isn't going to work, either. Whether you use paper strips or a pH meter, you need to make a 10% solution of soap in distilled water to get a proper reading. Just know that the pH number doesn't tell you anything about whether the product is lye heavy or not - those are two different things. For now, I'd forget about pH testing and focus on learning how to consistently make LS. It's not as easy as bar soap, in my opinion.

My conclusion: knowing how to test and fix liquid soap isn't that simple even without all of the above. Although I rarely will throw out a batch of soap, because you are new to this, and so many things were done incorrectly, I'm going to recommend that you toss this one. Start over with a small batch - no doubling! - and put the exact recipe into the soap calculator. Then follow it exactly.

If you run into any trouble, please come back and ask questions before you try to fix things. That allows us to help you before things have gone too far. We really do want to help you and see you have good success with this!

EDIT: sorry, I must have been typing while DeeAnna posted, so please excuse any duplication.

thanks so much and I understand
This batch has been a massive learning curve for me.
I have over corrected so many times and am now in a mess.
Being accurate is not my strong suit. I read how clear you all are is very inspiring. I am going to learn to be more scientific. I am an artist and dyslexic so didn't do well at school but am sure I can learn this process.

Making this dud batch has taught me about:
Lye excess
False trace
The specificity of each oil
Volcanic reaction from overheating (again trying to rush things)
Overcorrection
The inaccuracy of the litmus test kits
The zap test (was very zappy, ill try again now its testing Ph 8)

So will write it down to experience, toss it, and make a new batch. As you say learn to use the soap calc and do single batches to start

Thanks again for your reply
Kindly
Nicola

 

[AliOop]

Ok so i have now added 75g of citric acid and it's about Ph 8
Thinner and very milky
Performs like liquid soap, not great lather but ok.
Should I add a bit of KOH to get it to Ph 9 or ????
Is it actually liquid soap with that deep milkyness...

thanks so much and I understand
This batch has been a massive learning curve for me.
I have over corrected so many times and am now in a mess.
Being accurate is not my strong suit. I read how clear you all are is very inspiring. I am going to learn to be more scientific. I am an artist and dyslexic so didn't do well at school but am sure I can learn this process.

Making this dud batch has taught me about:
Lye excess
False trace
The specificity of each oil
Volcanic reaction from overheating (again trying to rush things)
Overcorrection
The inaccuracy of the litmus test kits
The zap test (was very zappy, ill try again now its testing Ph 8)

So will write it down to experience, toss it, and make a new batch. As you say learn to use the soap calc and do single batches to start

Thanks again for your reply
Kindly
Nicola

I'm sorry, I know it is disappointing to throw something out after you tried so hard. But sometimes starting over is best, and I believe this is one of those times.

FYI, as a scientific matter, soap must remain at 9 pH or above, or it starts to break apart into an oily mess - not really soap anymore. Also, those cheap paper pH strips are usually 2-3 points lower than the true pH anyway. So, don't bother with pH testing at this point. It's better to carefully follow a good recipe, and look for other signs that the soap is safe to use.

It looks like you started with the beginner liquid soapmaking recipe from Elly's Everyday YouTube channel. She's generally a good resource for learning soapmaking, but you do need to follow the recipe as written (insert picture of your granny, wagging her finger at you).

 

[NicLod]

Ha ha my granny would have slapped my wrist as well when she was teaching me how to sew.
Thanks for helping I really appreciate it and have a lovely day (or night) Im in Australia and yes Elly is who I have been learning from.
She is so clear and doesn't neutralise so it's easier, or should be if I followed the recipe, (insert picture of 60-year-old woman looking like a contrite child) ha ha

 

[AliOop]

Ha ha my granny would have slapped my wrist as well when she was teaching me how to sew.
Thanks for helping I really appreciate it and have a lovely day (or night) Im in Australia and yes Elly is who I have been learning from.
She is so clear and doesn't neutralise so it's easier, or should be if I followed the recipe, (insert picture of 60-year-old woman looking like a contrite child) ha ha

I guess I'm too young to be your granny, but substitute slightly older sister and we are right there.

 

[DeeAnna]

I have not had a good day at work today, so I apologize if I sounded crabby earlier.

But honestly, you need to let go of the need to test the pH. It is not ever going to tell you what you want to know.

Your pH paper can only manage to show pH to a whole unit. A zap test will go from "No zap to see here" to "OMG, that's really zappy!" with only a tiny addition of excess alkali. The pH change between these two results is correspondingly tiny. Small enough that no pH test strip on the market, even the best of the best, will pick up the change.

So if you expect to dial in your soap until it has no excess alkali and no excess fat, testing the pH isn't the way to do it. A change of 1 pH unit is a HUGE difference in the alkalinity. You'll be swinging back and forth between the soap having too much fat and the soap having too much alkali.

 

[NicLod]

ha ha thank you