Peanut oil and Baking Soda. Will it work?

[Albercook]

I posted this in the friends forum by accident. Sorry for the duplication.

I'm working with a nonprofit in Malawi. They are starting a maker/crafter space to foster entrepreneurial activity. I have a Maker background and try to help them any way that I can. (We are making shingles from plastic trash with a solar powered oven for example.)

They just posted about an attempt to make soap. They are are using peanut oil and what sounds like baking soda. I have read that you can use baking soda but that it can be tricky.

I did some searching and found stuff about peanut oil and about baking soda but not both.

Any advice?

 

[not_ally]

I suspect something has gotten lost in translation along the way. To make soap you need oil/s and lye (sometimes called "caustic soda"). Baking soda is not the same thing as lye, and as far as I know cannot be used to make soap. To make soap with peanut oil/other oils and lye you'd have to run the recipe through a soaping calculator program like soapcalc.com. It is not safe to use a recipe unless you've checked it with a calculator, even one from an otherwise trustworthy internet source.

To get substantive advice on a recipe you'd have to post the actual recipe (oils/lye/water amounts, any additives).

 

[Albercook]

Baking soda is not the same thing as lye, and as far as I know cannot be used to make soap.

That was what it thought also until I tried washing my hands with baking soda. They definitely felt slippery. I expect there was some saponification taking place.

Then I found these guys.

They baked it which makes it decompose into sodium carbonate. Sodium carbonate can definitely be used to make soap.

I will ask them it is harden?

 

[paradisi]

No, baking soda does not saponify your skin when you rinse with it.

Please get your information from credible sources.

And apply a bit of logic: if decent soap could be made without the hazards of sodium hydroxide, it would already be everywhere.

There's nobody on YouTube with secret soap knowledge.

 

[AliOop]

I agree with @not_ally - what was probably confused in translation is that they were using caustic soda (aka NaOH, or lye) and not baking soda.

Also, washing soda isn't used typically used make "soap" as that term is used scientifically. It is often combined with other ingredients such as borax to make a laundry powder. That isn't a true soap, but it is used to wash clothes.

 

[Albercook]

I agree with @not_ally - what was probably confused in translation is that they were using caustic soda (aka NaOH, or lye) and not baking soda.

Also, washing soda isn't used typically used make "soap" as that term is used scientifically. It is often combined with other ingredients such as borax to make a laundry powder. That isn't a true soap, but it is used to wash clothes.

I was also surprised. I asked them again and they said that it was Sodium Bicarbonate. I don't know of another reaction that would turn peanut oil into a solid.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Apparently it can be done, as explained in this post by @DeeAnna https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/soap-making-with-nahco3.48671/post-467515

 

[not_ally]

Interesting, it appears from @Mobjack Bay's link that this is actually a thing. @Albercook, why are the people at the non-profit making soap that way? Is baking soda cheaper than lye there? This process seems to add extra steps which does not seem optimal unless there is a cost benefit.

 

[DeeAnna]

It's not a good idea to assume the "soda" that people are using in these videos is BAKING soda (sodium bicarbonate). It's not.

Yes, I have publicly said in the thread provided by Mobjack Bay and elsewhere that baking soda (sodium bicarbonate, NaHCO3) can theoretically be used to make soap. That is a correct statement.

I didn't go into any detail n that other thread. Although it can be done, saponification with baking soda also requires HIGH temperatures. Baking soda will never make soap at the usual temperatures that people use for hot or cold process soap making. You have to heat the mixture to a much higher temperature range.

The saponification reaction of baking soda and fat also evolves carbon dioxide gas, so the mixture foams a lot during saponification. There are fire extinguishers that have baking soda in them that are used to fight grease fires in kitchens. The baking soda reacts with the burning grease to form a foamy soap. The CO2 foam helps extinguish the fire by reducing the oxygen going to the fire and also by physically smothering the flames.

That's great for a fire extinguisher, but for everyday soap making, baking soda is not a practical alkali to use.

***

There's at least one video on Youtube in a language other than English that supposedly uses (baking) soda to make soap, at least according to the original Englsh translation of the script. A later, more accurate translation of the script shows it's actually sodium carbonate that's being used, not baking soda, sodium bicarbonate. (edit: This video may be the one in Mobjack's link)

While bakers might call baking soda just "soda", that's not what "soda" means in the chemistry manufacturing world. "Soda" as the term is used in chemical manufacturing is sodium carbonate (washing soda, soda ash, NaCO3).

Soda = sodium carbonate, Na2CO3. Caustic soda = sodium hydroxide, NaOH. Potash = potassium carbonate, K2CO3. Caustic potash = potassium hydroxide, KOH.

***

Sodium carbonate can be used directly to make soap, but only if the ingredients are simmered and stirred for hours. But it can be done.

A more efficient way to use sodium carbonate for soap making is to first convert it into sodium hydroxide, and then use the resulting NaOH solution for soap making as we normally would use it. Slaked lime (calcium hydroxide) is used to convert sodium carbonate to sodium hydroxide.

***

Just because a weak alkali like baking soda happens to make your skin feel slick isn't proof that saponification is happening.

 

[Albercook]

It's not a good idea to assume the "soda" that people are using in these videos is BAKING soda (sodium bicarbonate). It's not.

Yes, I have publicly said in the thread provided by Mobjack Bay and elsewhere that baking soda (sodium bicarbonate, NaHCO3) can theoretically be used to make soap. That is a correct statement.

I didn't go into any detail n that other thread. Although it can be done, saponification with baking soda also requires HIGH temperatures. Baking soda will never make soap at the usual temperatures that people use for hot or cold process soap making. You have to heat the mixture to a much higher temperature range.

The saponification reaction of baking soda and fat also evolves carbon dioxide gas, so the mixture foams a lot during saponification. There are fire extinguishers that have baking soda in them that are used to fight grease fires in kitchens. The baking soda reacts with the burning grease to form a foamy soap. The CO2 foam helps extinguish the fire by reducing the oxygen going to the fire and also by physically smothering the flames.

That's great for a fire extinguisher, but for everyday soap making, baking soda is not a practical alkali to use.

***

There's at least one video on Youtube in a language other than English that supposedly uses (baking) soda to make soap, at least according to the original Englsh translation of the script. A later, more accurate translation of the script shows it's actually sodium carbonate that's being used, not baking soda, sodium bicarbonate. (edit: This video may be the one in Mobjack's link)

While bakers might call baking soda just "soda", that's not what "soda" means in the chemistry manufacturing world. "Soda" as the term is used in chemical manufacturing is sodium carbonate (washing soda, soda ash, NaCO3).

Soda = sodium carbonate, Na2CO3. Caustic soda = sodium hydroxide, NaOH. Potash = potassium carbonate, K2CO3. Caustic potash = potassium hydroxide, KOH.

***

Sodium carbonate can be used directly to make soap, but only if the ingredients are simmered and stirred for hours. But it can be done.

A more efficient way to use sodium carbonate for soap making is to first convert it into sodium hydroxide, and then use the resulting NaOH solution for soap making as we normally would use it. Slaked lime (calcium hydroxide) is used to convert sodium carbonate to sodium hydroxide.

***

Just because a weak alkali like baking soda happens to make your skin feel slick isn't proof that saponification is happening.

Thank you! What a generous and thoughtful response!

I was cautious about telling them that their method was not actually making soap. If they had a traditional method of soap making that I was not familiar with I did not want to appear arrogant even if what they were saying did not seem "logical".

There are many possible reasons why they would not use Lye. It is a very poor country. In a different project, a bag of concrete was too pricey for them. Even a thermometer was something that they had to make a special effort to aquire.

Another goal of the nonprofit is to promote a maker’s spirit and a willingness to try things. I didn't realize how privileged I was to be able to afford to try things that might not work. "Fail early and fail often" assumes a degree of wealth that much of the world does not have. Logic and common sense are culturally specific. What would make financial sense in our world of abundance may not apply in a place where you build your own home and it has a grass roof.

I may have been overly eager to imagine that in Malawi they had a different method.

I'm very concerned about them attempting to use Sodium or Potassium Hydroxide. I don't want to try to advise them on personal protective equipment and safety procedures over WhatsApp. Even running water, to wash off in an emergency is not a given.

Mea Culpa about the video. I didn't watch closely enough. I thought they started with a liquid oil and ended up with a room temperature solid. This reminds me to be generous when I snicker at people who believe things they read on Pinterest.

I did check with them and what they made did not solidify. In fact it separated.

I will ask but even if the nonprofit is able to aquire Lye I expect that they will be concerned that even if they help develop a recipe with Lye it will not be something that a typical person can afford and they may have to buy an industrial quantity.

Maybe we can come up with a process that they can afford and is reasonably safe. Maybe they can use a pressure cooker and Sodium Carbonate that they make by simple heating. That would produce CO2. I could imagine soap foam plugging the pressure relief valve. That would be a problem. Would have to be a stainless steel pressure cooker.

Thanks again for all your responses.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...able to aquire Lye..."

Please don't use the word "lye" when you're trying to communicate exact information to others who might be inexperienced with soap making. This word is a generic term for any alkali that can be used to make soap, up to and including baking soda and "lye" made from ashes.

Many hobby soap makers only make bar soap and many of those folks use "lye" to mean only NaOH because that's all they know. But a potassium hydroxide solution is also called "lye" by liquid soap makers. So context is important when using the word.

If you use the proper chemical name (sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide, etc.) for the alkali you're talking about, there's no issue with context -- everyone will know exactly what you're talking about.

"...Maybe they can use a pressure cooker..."

Not sure why cooking soap under pressure would be a simpler way to make soap. Pressure cookers are expensive for one thing.

Why not just cook the fat, water, and sodium carbonate in the open air? That can be done in an open kettle over a wood fire with simple tools for stirring.

Or if lime is available, one could convert the sodium carbonate to sodium hydroxide with slaked lime and water. Then make the soap using the NaOH solution.

 

[Albercook]

"...able to aquire Lye..."

Please don't use the word "lye" when you're trying to communicate exact information to others who might be inexperienced with soap making. This word is a generic term for any alkali that can be used to make soap, up to and including baking soda and "lye" made from ashes.

Many hobby soap makers only make bar soap and many of those folks use "lye" to mean only NaOH because that's all they know. But a potassium hydroxide solution is also called "lye" by liquid soap makers. So context is important when using the word.

If you use the proper chemical name (sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide, etc.) for the alkali you're talking about, there's no issue with context -- everyone will know exactly what you're talking about.

"...Maybe they can use a pressure cooker..."

Not sure why cooking soap under pressure would be a simpler way to make soap. Pressure cookers are expensive for one thing.

Why not just cook the fat, water, and sodium carbonate in the open air? That can be done in an open kettle over a wood fire with simple tools for stirring.

Or if lime is available, one could convert the sodium carbonate to sodium hydroxide with slaked lime and water. Then make the soap using the NaOH solution.

Got it about the word lye.

You might have a solution with the converting Sodium Bicarbonate to Sodium Carbonate by heating then use it and peanut oil. Sodium Carbonate is still nasty to work with but not as bad as Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium Hydroxide. I would have to think about the safety precautions protective equipment that they would have available.

Do you know of a recipe for Sodium Carbonate and Peanut Oil? If they bake the Sodium Bicarbonate long enough they could use volume measurements. I don't think many will have an accurate scale. Would have to check.

I'm curious if Sodium Hydroxide leads to hard soap and Potassium Hydroxide leads to liquid soap what would Sodium Bicarbonate result it?

Does anyone know the reason one makes hard soap and one makes liquid soap? They are both strong bases, and are chemically similar in many ways.

Is the Sodium Hydroxide leads to hard soap and Potassium Hydroxide leads to l liquid soap a hard rule? It would seam that the size of the fatty acids would have more of an effect. Would Potassium Hydroxide lead to hard soap if it was used in higher concentration or heated longer? Is the result liquid because the process is not complete? Maybe there are still some monoglycerides still left in the final product?

Interesting, it appears from @Mobjack Bay's link that this is actually a thing. @Albercook, why are the people at the non-profit making soap that way? Is baking soda cheaper than lye there? This process seems to add extra steps which does not seem optimal unless there is a cost benefit.

I'm not sure why they are making soap at all. They are trying to cultivate an entrepreneurial spirit. That may be part of it. The economics are also very different. They make a lot of their own things. Like the houses that they live in. Also when your own labor is easier to come.by than cash.

I don't know if lye is even available. Thanks for your interest.

Not sure why cooking soap under pressure would be a simpler way to make soap.

Not simpler but faster.

 

[artemis]

I just did a quick Google search on soapmaking in Malawi. There are some groups there teaching soapmaking already. Is it possible to connect with them and see about getting In-Person training for the people you are trying to help?

 

[Albercook]

I just did a quick Google search on soapmaking in Malawi. There are some groups there teaching soapmaking already. Is it possible to connect with them and see about getting In-Person training for the people you are trying to help?

That is brilliant! Thanks!

If they go all grandmother technology can anyone point me towards reference for making alkali from ashes and using it for soap making that would be great.

I will search for soap making in Malawi and check out the results before recommending any. They may have gotten the Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) recipe from the Internet. Still a great idea.

 

[A-Polly]

My understanding is that African Black Soap is mainly made in west African countries, but perhaps the process could also work in Malawi?From the descriptions I've read, it sounds like what they are looking for (that is, local plant material such as plantain skins, palm leaves, etc. are dried and burned, and the resulting ash provides an alkali to be boiled with water and fats for a long time until soap is formed). Perhaps someone could be found to teach them how to do it with their own local materials. It's a very popular product and would likely sell well. I really like using it as an additive in salt bars. Just a thought!

 

[PaintyLiz]

My dad used to make lye this way.
https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/how-to-make-soap-from-ashes-zmaz72jfzfre/

FWIW I used to live next door to the Mother Earth News compound near Hendersonville North Carolina. Basically it was a bunch of yuppies who wanted to go back to nature and really didn't know what they were doing lol The compound has since fallen to the ground because nothing was built very well. However they did have some interesting articles on how to do things. Most of them were written by people who actually knew what they were doing. But YMMV

 

[Albercook]

My dad used to make lye this way.
https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/how-to-make-soap-from-ashes-zmaz72jfzfre/

FWIW I used to live next door to the Mother Earth News compound near Hendersonville North Carolina. Basically it was a bunch of yuppies who wanted to go back to nature and really didn't know what they were doing lol The compound has since fallen to the ground because nothing was built very well. However they did have some interesting articles on how to do things. Most of them were written by people who actually knew what they were doing. But YMMV

Thanks. Great reference!

My understanding is that African Black Soap is mainly made in west African countries, but perhaps the process could also work in Malawi?From the descriptions I've read, it sounds like what they are looking for (that is, local plant material such as plantain skins, palm leaves, etc. are dried and burned, and the resulting ash provides an alkali to be boiled with water and fats for a long time until soap is formed). Perhaps someone could be found to teach them how to do it with their own local materials. It's a very popular product and would likely sell well. I really like using it as an additive in salt bars. Just a thought!

Thanks. I will share this.

 

[DeeAnna]

Not simpler but faster.

Hmm. Okay, but I thought you're interested in soap making for people who don't have many resources. Pressure cookers aren't cheap.

...
I'm curious if Sodium Hydroxide leads to hard soap and Potassium Hydroxide leads to liquid soap what would Sodium Bicarbonate result it?,,,

Soap made with sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, and sodium hydroxide will all make hard soap. What's the commonality between these three alkalis?

Soap made with potassium carbonate or potassium hydroxide will all make soft or liquid soap. Again, look for the common factor in these chemicals.

 

[Albercook]

Hmm. Okay, but I thought you're interested in soap making for people who don't have many resources. Pressure cookers aren't cheap.


Soap made with sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, and sodium hydroxide will all make hard soap. What's the commonality between these three alkalis?

Soap made with potassium carbonate or potassium hydroxide will all make soft or liquid soap. Again, look for the common factor in these chemicals.

Ion diameter?

Ion diameter?

I'm in interested in understanding and helping people.