Organic vs. non-organic oils?

[Seawolfe]

Pesticides used in organic farming have to meet organic input criteria here. So copper sulphate and slaked lime is accepted for some spraying purposes (as an example). Roundup, and similar, is not accepted. I'm not sure on the residue in Canada, I can only speak for the people I deal with (who are the farmers of the organic produce I buy). I don't know if my local supermarket has organic fruit and vegetables - I suppose they would. It's sad that you have so much pesticide spray - hardly organic then :silent:

According to that wikki article, rotenone (the ingredient in roundup) and also pyrethrins and azadirachtin are allowed on organic foods. I guess Im not so surprised about roundup - its half life is very short, but Im a bit surprised about the pyrethrins and azadirachtin because of the damage to beneficial insects, especially bees.

In organic farming synthetic pesticides are generally prohibited. A chemical is said to be synthetic if it does not already exist in the natural world. But the organic label goes further and usually prohibit compounds that exist in nature if they are produced by Chemical synthesis. So the prohibition is also about the method of production and not only the nature of the compound.

A non exhaustive list of organic approved pesticides with theirs Median lethal dose

Copper(II) sulfate is used as a fungicide and is also used in conventional agriculture (LD50 300 mg/kg). Conventional agriculture has the option to use the less toxic Mancozeb (LD50 4,500 to 11,200 mg/kg)
Boric acid is used as stomach poison that target insects (LD50: 2660 mg/kg).
Pyrethrin comes from chemicals extracted from flowers of the genus Pyrethrum (LD50 of 370 mg/kg). Its potent toxicity is used to control insects.
Lime sulphur (aka calcium polysulfide) and sulfur are considered to be allowed, synthetic materials[176] (LD50: 820 mg/kg)
Rotenone is a powerful insecticide that was used to control insects (LD50: 132 mg/kg). Despite the high toxicity of Rotenone to aquatic life and some links to Parkinson disease the compound is still allowed in organic farming as it is a naturally occurring compound.[177]
Bromomethane is a gas that is still used in the nurseries of Strawberry organic farming[178]
Azadirachtin is a wide spectrum very potent insecticide. Almost non toxic to mammals (LD50 in rats is > 3,540 mg/kg) but affects beneficial insects.

 

[SaltedFig]

Hi SeaWolfe,

I had to go and check our standards for the Wiki list that you supplied. It looks like there are some that cross over, but others that are not allowed here.

The most notable differences were:
Methyl Bromide (Bromomethane) was prohibited at Federal Government level completely by Jan 1 2005

Rotenone expressly prohibited in our organic standards (no use allowed)

Boron products (incl. Boric Acid) only for use as a micronutrient

Pyrethins and Neem products: Falls under botanical pesticides, so there is provision for some (restricted) use of the non-synthetic version of these.

Seems like Australian organic restrictions are tighter than documented in Wiki.

 

[Seawolfe]

My apologies! I only just noticed you're in Australia. That site was quoting USDA regs. Want some GMO corn? :headbanging:

Hi SeaWolfe,

I had to go and check our standards for the Wiki list that you supplied. It looks like there are some that cross over, but others that are not allowed here.

The most notable differences were:
Methyl Bromide (Bromomethane) was prohibited at Federal Government level completely by Jan 1 2005

Rotenone expressly prohibited in our organic standards (no use allowed)

Boron products (incl. Boric Acid) only for use as a micronutrient

Pyrethins and Neem products: Falls under botanical pesticides, so there is provision for some (restricted) use of the non-synthetic version of these.

Seems like Australian organic restrictions are tighter than documented in Wiki.

 

[KatyP]

For me, I soap with only organic oils. Not because I am concerned with what might be in the oil itself, but because before I was a soap maker I was a beekeeper. I still am. I raise 4 different types of bees, only one of which is a honeybee. I use organic oils so that I know that my soap did not create a demand (minimal though it is) for an oil from a crop that was treated with those specific chemicals. I sell my honey, I sell bees, and I sell my soap all together as one business with ties to bee conservation groups. I make it very clear to my customers that I use only organic oils, but that because I must use lye to make the product, the product itself can never be certified organic. They get it. It works well for me, and my customers have no problem paying the higher cost for my products (from $6.25 up to $9.50/bar USD) because they support the concept.

 

[lenarenee]

For me, I soap with only organic oils. Not because I am concerned with what might be in the oil itself, but because before I was a soap maker I was a beekeeper. I still am. I raise 4 different types of bees, only one of which is a honeybee. I use organic oils so that I know that my soap did not create a demand (minimal though it is) for an oil from a crop that was treated with those specific chemicals. I sell my honey, I sell bees, and I sell my soap all together as one business with ties to bee conservation groups. I make it very clear to my customers that I use only organic oils, but that because I must use lye to make the product, the product itself can never be certified organic. They get it. It works well for me, and my customers have no problem paying the higher cost for my products (from $6.25 up to $9.50/bar USD) because they support the concept.

Thank you Katy - I never thought of it that way! (what kind of bees do you keep?)

Why is Roundup - with it's short half life - found in humans? Crops picked and sold shortly after spraying? Does Round up then degrade as quickly in the human body?

Now I wish there was a classification for 100% pesticide free crops. Although, I understand the frustration bugs cause farmers; I can't even grow nasturtiums here because of those little white moths that lay eggs under the leaves. The pretty green inch worms must have been the inspiration behind the The Hungry Caterpillar book!

 

[SaltedFig]

lenaree, there are circumstances where this pesticide can with stay in soil for a lot longer than the advertised half-life. It can transfer from the soil to the plant, and in the case of some crop spraying schedules, still have residue on the plant at harvest (withholding period and growing condition dependent).

Now I wish there was a classification for 100% pesticide free crops. Although, I understand the frustration bugs cause farmers; I can't even grow nasturtiums here because of those little white moths that lay eggs under the leaves. The pretty green inch worms must have been the inspiration behind the The Hungry Caterpillar book!

The cabbage white moth (which it sounds like you are describing - it's not even a moth, common names are that good) can be brought under control a bit if you can encourage hunters into your garden (insect eating birds are excellent, but the wasps tend to do a brilliant job, if you can set up some habitats for them, like insect hotels and wood mulched areas). Encouraging lady bugs is another one ... before they are go through their final molt and become nectar drinking lady bugs, they are hunters of aphids and other small eaters of plants. Round it off with some lizard habitats, and your laughing.

Which reminds me ... exclusion cages work (5 to 6mm wire lets bees in, but keeps butterflies out), if you just want to save something, or get a new plant started. Just have the cage far enough away from the plant so they can't land on the cage and use that to perch on to lay eggs! If the white butterfly's and their caterpillars are seasonal (which they are here), you might be able to get away with using exclusion cages for just the peek infestation times (at the start of the warm weather, usually).

For me, I soap with only organic oils. Not because I am concerned with what might be in the oil itself, but because before I was a soap maker I was a beekeeper. I still am. I raise 4 different types of bees, only one of which is a honeybee. I use organic oils so that I know that my soap did not create a demand (minimal though it is) for an oil from a crop that was treated with those specific chemicals. I sell my honey, I sell bees, and I sell my soap all together as one business with ties to bee conservation groups. I make it very clear to my customers that I use only organic oils, but that because I must use lye to make the product, the product itself can never be certified organic. They get it. It works well for me, and my customers have no problem paying the higher cost for my products (from $6.25 up to $9.50/bar USD) because they support the concept.

KatyP, Sodium and Potassium hydroxides are allowed inputs into certified organic products (this applies in Australia, America and some European countries).

Soap cannot be registered as 100% organic (as you already know), but if you include sufficient organic ingredients in your recipe, you can get still get a lower tier certification (which does place restrictions on labelling, mostly moving the information to the rear of the packaging. This appeals to customers looking for a certified organic product).

 

[Sandra@SS]

a half life is just that.
The time it takes half the substance to degrade. The other half is left. That degrades in another 'half life'. The time taken for the substance to reach 0 is infinite, as it is only ever half of the amount.
Half lives are calculated under specific conditions, so yes, environmental conditions do make an impact.

 

[SaltedFig]

a half life is just that.
The time it takes half the substance to degrade. The other half is left. That degrades in another 'half life'. The time taken for the substance to reach 0 is infinite, as it is only ever half of the amount.
Half lives are calculated under specific conditions, so yes, environmental conditions do make an impact.

Yup. That's exactly right Sandra ... it can stick around in the soil for a long time (years), and this time can be significantly longer than the half-life calculated under laboratory conditions.

However, unlike pure mathematical calculations (where there is no real end point), there is a finite end to the decay of physical matter.

If you would like to read up on the half-life of pesticides in soil, this article describes the process quite well (I have not double-checked the actual figures they use).
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/half-life.html

 

[penelopejane]

I make some organic soaps. It is a personal decision to use organic soap.
Often when someone gets cancer the first thing they do is to revert to all organic.
Why knows?
Let people make a choice that keeps them happy and try not to criticise it.
I think live and let live applies here.