Opinions on recipe modifications

[John Harris]

Can it be?
I've been doing some calculating. Could it be that olive oil is cheaper than safflower and sunflower?? Maybe I am doing the math all wrong.

 

[dibbles]

Afterthought - Can I do without the Shea butter. 5 KG is going to cost me $108.69. (Canadian) I will buy it if it really makes a difference, but if it really isn't THAT much of a big deal, I'd rather not spend all that money.

I would say you can eliminate the shea and add to the lard. But that is just my opinion and I can't promise you won't notice a difference. Lard makes such a lovely soap, I wouldn't miss the shea butter.

I've been doing some calculating. Could it be that olive oil is cheaper than safflower and sunflower?? Maybe I am doing the math all wrong.

I think it depends on where you are. Here I can buy my olive oil and sunflower oil locally, and sunflower oil is cheaper. It could be completely different in Montreal.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Can it be?
I've been doing some calculating. Could it be that olive oil is cheaper than safflower and sunflower?? Maybe I am doing the math all wrong.

I don't find OO to be particularly expensive for the extra light variety. I can't even get safflower here unless I go to health food store, which of course = $$$$$

 

[John Harris]

Here are the prices I get for the different oils:
Olive - $7.33/L
Sunflower - $8.84/L
Safflower - $20.61/L

 

[AliOop]

Can it be?
I've been doing some calculating. Could it be that olive oil is cheaper than safflower and sunflower?? Maybe I am doing the math all wrong.

Olive oil is cheaper and more available for me.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Compare
Olive: $NZ9.50/L =$CAD8.29
Sunflower: $NZ5.58/L (not high oleic) =$CAD4.87
Safflower: $NZ35/L =$CAD30.53
RBO: $NZ4.50/L =$CAD3.95

 

[ResolvableOwl]

I've doubts about the pricing of “wholesale” cosmetic suppliers anyway. How can they charge >10€ for 1 L of HO sunflower oil (conventional agriculture), when I can get more than twice for the same money in an organic supermarket (that still pays rent and salaries from the margins)? Who buys this? Is that lot tracking number really worth such a hefty price premium?

HO sunflower/safflower in conventional quality is around 2…4 € (3…6 CAD) per litre here (on the supermarket shelf), I can even get some regionally grown sunflower. Canola, HL sunflower and palm oil (“frying fat”) are half of that.

IIRC, the RBO was around 2.50 € per 0.5 L in the Asian store, that's 7.40 CAD/L, not as dirt cheap as in NZ, but still only 1/3 of what cosmetic suppliers are charging.

Funny enough, Germany is EVOO land. The shelves offer hundreds of EVOO qualities, but I've never seen refined olive oil on sale anywhere, let alone pomace OO. Cheapest discounter qualities start at some 5€/L (?), I have no market overview since I've joined a wholesale group for Cretan organic EVOO and have lost track of my spendings on it

 

[earlene]

At the Oratory of St. Joseph, I asked the counter lady what kind of oil was St. Joseph's Oil, "Vegetale," she replied. I wanted more specificity. "Quel SORT de vegetale?" I asked. She replied, "Vegetale! Vegetale!" This went on for a while, with her getting more worked up as I asked my question over and over. I finally gave up. I guess it is just plain old vegetable oil.

I have had the same discussion (not about St Joseph) about 'vegetable' oil. I think it is because they don't have a clue.

What vegetable is actually named 'vegetable'? If I look on an ingredient list of a bottle of 'vegetable oil' and it doesn't specify which oil(s) are in the mix, I won't buy it, not even for cooking.

 

[Zing]

With all your beeswax, have you ever made lotion bars? 3 ingredients, minutes to make, and no cure time!

 

[LynetteO]

@Zing I’m making lotion bars as well as for Christmas gifts. Recipe I have calls for 4 ingredients. May I inquire as to which of these is NOT in recipe you are familiar with? {3oz CO, 3oz liquid oil, 3oz luxury butter & 4oz beeswax}
I like to simplify.

 

[Susie]

OK! I know you are dying to hear this information, so here goes. I worked this out with ResolvableOwl.

My BIG NEW Recipe:

Olive - 14.43%
Coconut -18.59%
Bees wax - 1.86%
Castor Oil - 7.44%
Sunflower - 18.59%
Lard - 34.45%
Shea - 4.65% - Actually, Shea was re-added based on AliOop's posting above.

Afterthought - Can I do without the Shea butter. 5 KG is going to cost me $108.69. (Canadian) I will buy it if it really makes a difference, but if it really isn't THAT much of a big deal, I'd rather not spend all that money.

I would add the shea amount to the lard, use OO rather than Sunflower Oil as it is much cheaper here, pare down the castor oil to 5%, as I have never found any reason that bar soap benefits from more than that. I would add that amount to the olive oil. I would really suggest trying one small (500 mg) batch of soap without the beloved beeswax and cut it up in trial size bars for all the family to try, then ask them if they like it better than the old recipe before committing yourself to it in soap. There are just so many other wonderful products that really do benefit from beeswax.

Something like so:

Lard 40%
Castor Oil 5%
Coconut 15-20%
Olive Oil 30-35%

Again, do small batches and encourage other people to do tests with you. Just don't tell them what you changed. You will be shocked at what you learn.

 

[MLSB]

If your customers like your current soap why change it? And especially change it with your suggested oils, I don’t like nor would I suggest canola oil.
but thank goodness there is the “do as you please rule”!

happy soaping!

 

[The_Phoenix]

For hardness, maybe? I just like the "idea" of bees wax. ;-) Should I not use it?
(Also, I have a ton of it, so I will be using it for a while.)

I’ve never put beeswax in soap so I can’t say what you should or shouldn’t do.

But beeswax, to the best of my knowledge (I’m sure someone will correct me on this if I’m incorrect) doesn’t get broken down during the saponification process, so I’m not sure it would translate to adding any sort of quality to the soap. In fact, because it doesn’t get broken down, my concern would be that it would inhibit lather and would feel a little bit weird on the skin. And you’ve acknowledged that using it requires you to have to soap at a very hot temperature. Soaping above 105 degrees would scare the heck out of me. Also, combined with 7% castor oil, that would be a very fast moving recipe.

These are my first thoughts concerning the addition of beeswax.

 

[John Harris]

... my concern would be that it would inhibit lather and would feel a little bit weird on the skin. And you’ve acknowledged that using it requires you to have to soap at a very hot temperature. Soaping above 105 degrees would scare the heck out of me. Also, combined with 7% castor oil, that would be a very fast moving recipe.

The lather is very good but I do hope the wax makes the bar deteriorate more slowly. This last batch I just made, I mixed at 120 degrees Fahrenheit. It was a smooth mixing process. It does go to trace very quickly.

To be honest, I not sure why I began to use wax all those years ago. But I have kept up the practice for years in my on-again-off-again soap career. I only use 100 grams in my rather large recipes, so it's effect, if any, is probably negligible.

 

[Zing]

@Zing I’m making lotion bars as well as for Christmas gifts. Recipe I have calls for 4 ingredients. May I inquire as to which of these is NOT in recipe you are familiar with? {3oz CO, 3oz liquid oil, 3oz luxury butter & 4oz beeswax}
I like to simplify.

There are so many options and preferences! If you like your recipe, keep it. I use variations on a theme of 1/3 each of beeswax, shea butter, coconut oil. Sometimes I sub 1 or 2 liquid oil (like jojoba and/or meadowfoam seed) for coconut. Sometimes I add essential oils.
My son prefers another recipe that calls for 100 ingredients.

 

[cmzaha]

Here are two of my favorite recipes. Both lather well and last a long time. I find these work well even with the CO a few points higher than I used to use after I started splitting CO and PKO. The canola oil is High Oleic. In place of tallow Palm can be used in the first recipe. I superfat 2%, 33% lye concentration for the first recipe, and 31% lye concentration for recipe 2.

Oil	%	Ounces	Grams
Tallow Beef	40.79	24.07	682.26
Lard, Pig Tallow (Manteca)	19.99	11.79	334.36
Canola Oil	19.33	11.4	323.32
Coconut Oil, 76 deg	8.6	5.07	143.85
Palm Kernel Oil	8.16	4.81	136.49
Castor Oil	3.14	1.85	52.52
Total	100	59	1672.62

Oil	%	Ounces	Grams
Palm Oil	44	25.96	735.95
Canola Oil, high oleic	27	15.93	451.61
Coconut Oil, 76 deg	9	5.31	150.54
Palm Kernel Oil	9	5.31	150.54
Shea Butter	8	4.72	133.81
Castor Oil	3	1.77	50.18
Total	100	59	1672.62

 

[John Harris]

My son prefers another recipe that calls for 100 ingredients.

100?? Can you name a few unusual ones?

 

[Zing]

Vitamin e oil, wheatgerm oil, neroli eo

 

[cmzaha]

100?? Can you name a few unusual ones?

When you get so many ingredients the percentages of the individual ingredients are so small they are really pretty useless and more for label appeal in my opinion.

 

[John Harris]

Zing must love her son! ;-)