New soaper in need of encouragement... and advice. Thanks in advance!

[merrysoap]

Hello all,

I'm a beginner soaper with approximately 6 months experience and just have to say right off the bat, I'm so thankful that this forum exists! I've learned so much from everyone here already and can't wait to continue my journey.

I started my soaping journey in October 2023 and have quickly become addicted. The combination of art and science is intoxicating. While I have no plans of starting a soap empire or ever making a living from selling soap, I would love to someday have a little local soap business to sell some bars at local farmers markets and craft shows, maybe have a few stands and local coffee shops, etc. If I could eventually cover the cost of supplies to keep creating and learning, I would be thrilled.

To that end, I've been practicing and practicing and practicing and having a ball. However, I just realized that I made a terrible rookie mistake. I was gifted a bottle of organic castor oil by a soapy friend that didn't have an expiration date on the label. What she thought was "just a couple of months old" turned out to be *the horror!* multiple (as in, probably 5+ years) old....

How did I discover this? Well, the very first batches of soap I made turned out well (for first attempts at least) and cured nicely. We used the bars at home and I gave some to close friends and family (all know that I am a beginner and still learning) to rave reviews. Let's hope they were genuine and not just being nice. No issues. All is well.

Fast forward about 6 months, I've been making lots of soap and trying out different recipes, techniques, etc. Then it happens... I notice the first tiny orange spot on one of my curing bars that's 3 weeks into cure. Never having had this issue before, I discover the wonderful/insanely frustrating rabbit hole of DOS. And then another spot appears. And another. And another.

The spots are tiny, 2-3mm diameter at most and not every bar from the batch has them. I typically make batches with 2# oils in a 10 inch Brambleberry mold that makes 10 bars. Some batches, only 1-2 bars out of 10 have a spot. Other batches, almost every bar has 1 spot. These are batches that have been curing for about 3 weeks and the spots seem to be appearing more frequently over the last couple of days (I may or may not be obsessively checking them daily).

I start researching like crazy and having a major crisis of confidence. I keep detailed notes of all my batches and realize that some spotty recipes have canola oil, some don't. Probably not the culprit. I do live in the Midwest in a high humidity area, but some batches are fine while others are not... the bars all cure on plastic cafeteria trays lined up on a metal rack with space between each bar and a dehumidifier running (new addition as of a week ago after I discovered DOS). They do not contact the metal surface.

I start scrutinizing the expiration dates of all of my oils (mostly purchased in bulk from WSP, olive oil from Sam's club) and additives (all from Brambleberry). And then it dawns on me. Before all of my bulk oils arrived, I used a "new" bottle of organic castor oil from my soapy friend and every single one of the batches that I made with that oil has gotten spots... Each 2# recipe contains only about 1-1.6 oz castor oil. After a little questioning (without revealing why I was asking), turns out that new bottle wasn't remotely new after all. It was multiple years old.

Here's where I need some encouragement and advice. It has been devastating to find each orange spot. These bars were destined for family and friends and while I personally don't mind using a bar with a single spot, I would feel awful giving these away if they were going to get all spotty sooner or later. I made multiple 2# batches with this castor oil and there is so much soap that we can't possibly use it all ourselves.

What would the experienced soapers in the house do (aside from not use old oil and not get DOS in the first place)? Would you give the bars away after telling folks about the issue and letting them decide if they want to use it? Trash them? I know there are methods to "salt out" impurities and then rebatch but I'm honestly not equipped to do that and don't feel comfortable with that technique just yet.

Sigh. Luckily regardless of the outcome, I can count this as a learning experience. If all the bars turn spotty and gross, it will be a major heartache but I guess lessons learned the hard way usually stick.

 

[justsomeguy]

If I were in your shoes, I'd keep all the problem soaps for myself and tell all expected recipients why. It takes to much time to regain people's confidence after a bad experience

 

[merrysoap]

If I were in your shoes, I'd keep all the problem soaps for myself and tell all expected recipients why. It takes to much time to regain people's confidence after a bad experience

Thanks for the input. I agree that that's the best course of action. For my own future reference, if you have a batch where 1-2 bars develop DOS after a few weeks, do you assume that ALL of the bars will do so (and thus not gift or sell any of them)? Or how long would you wait to see if the others develop DOS before feeling confident that they won't?

Seems to me like there isn't really a time when you're "safe" from DOS - it can happen weeks, months, or years down the line. How do you deal with this uncertainty in a business setting? What if you have bars that cure for 6-8 weeks but then develop DOS after sale?

While I hope I'm on the right track with the bad oil (since none of my batches made before or after I used it have had an issue, at least not yet!) and hope I don't have this experience again, I'm trying to think ahead to what I would do if this occurs down the line in a small business situation. Any advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[justsomeguy]

Thanks for the input. I agree that that's the best course of action. For my own future reference, if you have a batch where 1-2 bars develop DOS after a few weeks, do you assume that ALL of the bars will do so (and thus not gift or sell any of them)? Or how long would you wait to see if the others develop DOS before feeling confident that they won't?

I've no experience with DOS yet. But I assume if one bar is sketchy the whole thing is sketchy and err on the side of caution. I'm personally willing to use my sketchy stuff but not willing to share.

Seems to me like there isn't really a time when you're "safe" from DOS - it can happen weeks, months, or years down the line.

What I do is use fats with an expiration date at least 6 months in the future, ideally 12. I have away 24 pounds of palm kennel oil that was about 5 months away from its expiration date because I knew I want gonna make anything to sell with it and I wasn't gonna get around to using it for myself.

How do you deal with this uncertainty in a business setting? What if you have bars that cure for 6-8 weeks but then develop DOS after sale?

I tell all customers if they're unhappy with anything they buy from me I'll buy it back no questions asked. When you start out you have a lot of your customers trust. It only takes one whoops to lose it though.

While I hope I'm on the right track with the bad oil (since none of my batches made before or after I used it have had an issue, at least not yet!) and hope I don't have this experience again, I'm trying to think ahead to what I would do if this occurs down the line in a small business situation. Any advice is greatly appreciated!

In my professional life I always went with the "how would this play on the front page of a national paper above the fold" when making public decisions. Has served me very well

 

[AliOop]

@justsomeguy I use the same test in my professional life, as well. It's helped me avoid many a sticky wicket and also to maintain the trust of the decision-makers (in my case, the courts).

Regarding expiration dates on oils, my practice depends on the particular oil. Some of them are extremely shelf-stable, including palm, palm kernel, and coconut oil. Tallow and lard are also very stable if kept refrigerated. I tend not to pay attention to the expiry dates on any of these. Instead, I trust my nose and eyes to tell me if there is spoilage (but it hasn't happened yet, even with really old PO and PKO - and they soap just fine).

The liquid oils are a different animal. Those that are higher in linoleic and linolenic acids tend to spoil more quickly. But even the high-oleic versions aren't as shelf-stable as the others mentioned previously. For that reason, I tend not to buy liquid oils until I'm ready to make an oil master-batch. That way, I can open them, mix them into a master batch, and immediately add ROE to the whole mix as an antioxidant. It only takes a tiny amount of that stuff - like a tenth of one percent, so a tiny bottle of it will last a long time.

For any liquid oils that are in an open container and not used in a MB, I like to add ROE to that container, as well. I also refrigerate that container whenever possible, but wouldn't ya know, my husband thinks that FOOD is the priority for our fridge. I'd love to have a fridge dedicated to soaping oils.... maybe someday.

 

[merrysoap]

@justsomeguy and @AliOop , thank you both for the thoughtful replies. All of that makes perfect sense. I'm working on ideas for future marketing/future customer FAQ info and I love your no-questions-back buy back guarantee if there are ever any issues or someone is not completely satisfied. I will definitely find a way to incorporate that into my labeling or customer info. It not only makes logical sense but will help me sleep better at night when I get to selling.

While we're on the subject of oil expiration dates, I purchased bulk oils from WSP (coconut, Shea butter, castor, and avocado) and olive oil from Sam's club. There is an actual expiration on the olive oil that is over a year out, so I'm good there. The bulk oils don't appear to have a printed expiration date but the website says the following:

Best Used By: One year from date of purchase.
Shelf Life Once Used in Manufacturing: One year from manufacturing date.

Seems to be the same for many of their oils. Do these guidelines seem to hold up in your experience?

For any liquid oils that are in an open container and not used in a MB, I like to add ROE to that container, as well. I also refrigerate that container whenever possible

I think my husband would kill me if I tried to store my oils in fridge, but I do have an extra chest freezer downstairs... Would the oils do ok in the freezer? I will have to look into getting smaller containers to decant some of the bigger liquid oils. Do you have a recommendation for a reputable source for ROE? Or containers that you like to use for pouring off smaller batches of oil?

Really can't tell you all how much I appreciate this community. It's lovely to have more experienced folks to reach out to!

I've been on a bit of a mental tailspin after finding all the spots over the last few days... it has been truly disappointing. Better to have this happen now in the practice phase than once I started selling. I just hope to the soap gods that it was truly the old castor oil that was the issue and not something else....

I'm currently waiting on my lye water to cool for a very simple, unscented, uncolored batch with a proven recipe. Everything was cleaned meticulously (twice) and all oils are well within expiration guidelines... curing area is clean and dehumidified and ready to go.

If this batch also gets DOS, I may need a therapist! Wish me luck!

 

[justsomeguy]

While we're on the subject of oil expiration dates, I purchased bulk oils from WSP (coconut, Shea butter, castor, and avocado) and olive oil from Sam's club. There is an actual expiration on the olive oil that is over a year out, so I'm good there. The bulk oils don't appear to have a printed expiration date but the website says the following:

Best Used By: One year from date of purchase.
Shelf Life Once Used in Manufacturing: One year from manufacturing date.

Seems to be the same for many of their oils. Do these guidelines seem to hold up in your experience?

I've no experience with bulk oils from WSP. My supplier provides a month and year. Sometimes 2 years out, sometimes 1 year. I would trust their dates provided they provide the date of manufacture.

I think my husband would kill me if I tried to store my oils in fridge, but I do have an extra chest freezer downstairs... Would the oils do ok in the freezer? I will have to look into getting smaller containers to decant some of the bigger liquid oils. Do you have a recommendation for a reputable source for ROE? Or containers that you like to use for pouring off smaller batches of oil?

For my liquid oils I put them in 1 gallon jugs and tape up the cap with a self fusing silicon tape. I have no experience freezing oils.

I've been on a bit of a mental tailspin after finding all the spots over the last few days... it has been truly disappointing. Better to have this happen now in the practice phase than once I started selling. I just hope to the soap gods that it was truly the old castor oil that was the issue and not something else....

I'm currently waiting on my lye water to cool for a very simple, unscented, uncolored batch with a proven recipe. Everything was cleaned meticulously (twice) and all oils are well within expiration guidelines... curing area is clean and dehumidified and ready to go.

If this batch also gets DOS, I may need a therapist! Wish me luck!

Good luck!

 

[merrysoap]

I actually misspoke, bulk oils were purchased from Bulk Apothecary. Just my lye was purchased from WSP.

I can't find the info about date of manufacture anywhere. Looks like I have a phone call on my to-do list!

 

[KiwiMoose]

Such a shame. I would not give them away as they will only get worse over time. I use up as much as I can of my DOSsy soaps before they get so bad that i can't stand the smell, and then I chuck them out. If they are tolerable (fragrance wise), you could give them to a close friend and say they must use it NOW and if they don't they will go bad. Tell them NOT to put it in their undies drawer! LOL.
Make sure you keep them well away from your other soaps that have not got the dreaded castor oil in them, or it could spread.
I had a similar problem with some of my batches of soap recently, and I found out that it was my dark purple mica that was causing it. Prior to that i was going through all my oils and fragrances looking for other common denominators. I could never have imagined it was the mica - but there you go.

 

[merrysoap]

@KiwiMoose , so interesting! For a second, I thought it could be my purple mica since the first three bars that got spots all had ultramarine violent from Brambleberry in them (which was purchased two months ago). One lavender and two lilac scented (both scents also from Brambleberry). But then two bars that didn't have the purple got it... all had the old castor oil. Fingers crossed that that is actually the problem. It's going to be a nerve racking couple of weeks as I watch the newer batches to see if they develop any spots.

Thank you to everyone who responded for your input! It has been immensely helpful.

For any experienced soapers still watching this thread, when do you all feel comfortable that a bar is safe enough from DOS to sell? Obviously a minimum of 4-6 week cure but do you watch longer than that for DOS? Or do you feel confident at the 4-6 week mark assuming all oils are well within expiration dates and there have been no problems up until that point. (I realize that may be a silly question as I'm guessing most of you have not experienced DOS before...)

I went through my curing rack and removed all of the batches that had even one bar with a spot... it was heartbreaking but I actually didn't know that DOS could spread, so hopefully I got them out of there in time. We have So. Much. Soap! Luckily nothing smells yet so looks like I'll be making up excuses to shower more often over the next few weeks!

 

[KiwiMoose]

You never know when DOS will show up. I’ve had some turn within 4 weeks, and others not until about 3 months or more. My mother had a very old bar of soap I gave her and I found it at her hand basin over two years later - she must have kept it all that time before starting to use it. I was yukky and it stunk. She didn’t seem to notice? .

 

[merrysoap]

It was yukky and it stunk. She didn’t seem to notice? .

Too funny!

I feel much better after having talked this through with everyone. It's still unfortunate but gave me the encouragement I needed to keep trying, so thank you all!

 

[Becky1024]

Did I read right that only some batches that used the old castor oil developed DOS? Anyway, I applaud you keeping careful notes on each batch. It really helps trace back when you see a problem.

@KiwiMoose , so interesting! For a second, I thought it could be my purple mica since the first three bars that got spots all had ultramarine violent from Brambleberry in them (which was purchased two months ago). One lavender and two lilac scented (both scents also from Brambleberry). But then two bars that didn't have the purple got it... all had the old castor oil. Fingers crossed that that is actually the problem. It's going to be a nerve racking couple of weeks as I watch the newer batches to see if they develop any spots.

Thank you to everyone who responded for your input! It has been immensely helpful.

For any experienced soapers still watching this thread, when do you all feel comfortable that a bar is safe enough from DOS to sell? Obviously a minimum of 4-6 week cure but do you watch longer than that for DOS? Or do you feel confident at the 4-6 week mark assuming all oils are well within expiration dates and there have been no problems up until that point. (I realize that may be a silly question as I'm guessing most of you have not experienced DOS before...)

I went through my curing rack and removed all of the batches that had even one bar with a spot... it was heartbreaking but I actually didn't know that DOS could spread, so hopefully I got them out of there in time. We have So. Much. Soap! Luckily nothing smells yet so looks like I'll be making up excuses to shower more often over the next few weeks!

I feel comfortable selling after the curing period. That being said, I ran into a DOS problem 18 months after using some VERY grainy shea butter that I bought during the pandemic. My regular supplier was out, my 2nd source was out, and I had to settle for a supplier I had never used before. Evidently it was sitting in a hot warehouse for a long time. Thankfully no customers complained, and I only had a few bars left in stock. So it can happen later. As long as good practices like record keeping and using fresh oils are in place it should not be an issue for you.

 

[merrysoap]

Did I read right that only some batches that used the old castor oil developed DOS? Anyway, I applaud you keeping careful notes on each batch. It really helps trace back when you see a problem.

@Becky1024 , the batches I made before I was gifted the old castor oil all came out fine, no DOS (well, except one bar that I stupidly stored in a cupboard in our very humid bathroom without any air flow or desiccant... duh).

It was a few months into my soaping adventures that I was gifted the organic castor oil. As far as I can tell from my records, it looks like the only batches that have developed DOS have been batches I made while I was using up that bottle of oil... all of my recipes have 3-5% castor oil, so there was a string of like 8 batches in a row where some bars got DOS.

Interestingly, I separated all of the questionable batches from my main curing area and placed the DOS bars together and the non-DOS bars together. I'm kind of curious to see how it plays out... at this point, there are still quite a few bars from each affected batch with no spots, but I'm not sure how long it will stay that way. The spots that are there currently don't smell bad but I'm waiting for that to change.

 

[cmzaha]

For any experienced soapers still watching this thread, when do you all feel comfortable that a bar is safe enough from DOS to sell? Obviously a minimum of 4-6 week cure but do you watch longer than that for DOS? Or do you feel confident at the 4-6 week mark assuming all oils are well within expiration dates and there have been no problems up until that point. (I realize that may be a silly question as I'm guessing most of you have not experienced DOS before...)

This is the reason we tell new soapmakers to spend a year or two testing before selling. When I first started soaping I had a few issues with spots of dos appearing on some soaps, after lots of trials I determined my superfat had a lot to do with it. When I started out it was the belief you never went below 5% superfat and I would use 5-7% superfat. My first change was to cut my superfat to 3% going lower as the years progressed, boy was I bashed in the beginning for using low superfat. That has now changed and low superfatting is acceptable. My other change was adding in EDTA at the rate of 0.5% batch weight then I ended up adding in Sodium Gluconate at the rate of 0.5% also as my chelator, this further cut any dos issues. When I use lard in my batches I also add 0.02% of additional BHT which is an additive already in lard. Liquid oils which I would purchase in 5 gallon totes I would add in ROE after opening.

As far as expiration dates I did not stress too much about them unless the containers were opened and smelled off. Several years ago I traveled a long distance to purchase a destash lot that was claimed to be all fresh supplies. Several of the Kernel oils were at least 8-10 yrs old but had never been opened and showed no expiration dates. I knew the age because I knew how long I had been soaping and the labels were old label styles. I tested soaps with them letting the soaps age for at least 6 months and they were fine along with the lotions I made with the oils. I would even buy short expiration date HO Sunflower and Canola from my supplier for half the price when they had them available. Coconut, Palm and Palm Kernel Oils will last well over the expiration date on the box/container.

I will note I found some Lavender Essentials Oils would cause me some DOS issues especially if the Lavender was getting old. I had to make soaps that would last because I carried a large line of selection and many times my soaps would stay around for a year or two before selling. As it is now I still have 3 crate left with soaps since I stopped selling during Covid and none are showing signs of DOS, just less fragrance. But boy are they great Soaps!!

 

[merrysoap]

@cmzaha , very interesting, thanks for all of that info!

I haven't started selling yet but would like to get there someday, likely just on a small scale. My goal would be to cover the cost of supplies and make a little extra while enjoying the process of making the soaps and meeting new people in my community.

In a perfect world, since a lot of my potential buyers are in the "all natural" crowd, I would love to avoid chemical preservatives if at all possible. That being said, if adding chemical preservatives is the best way to make the soaps last in my climate, I will have to consider it and simply explain why I use them if anyone questions the decision.

I have been soaping at a 5% superfat almost exclusively thus far. I too was under the impression that 5% seems to be the "standard" minimum, but it will be good to experiment with going lower and see how it affects the bars.

Interesting that you mention the lavender EO as I did make two batches of an identical recipe lavender bar except one was made with EO (gifted to me by the same person who gave me the castor and likely just as old) and the other a Brambleberry FO because that's what I had on hand. The batches were the last two batches to use the old castor oil. So far, I haven't seen spots on the FO bar but did see some on the EO bar.

Because we are in such a damp climate (humidity is 96% today), I did start experimenting with lower water as % of oils to see if that helps speed up the cure a little bit (as far as the water evaporation part goes, I know there's more going on during the cure than just that). I also have a dehumidifier in the curing area and added a container of DampRid as well.

Prior to developing this issue, I had been playing around with different recipes, different coloring and swirling techniques, and different fragrances. For the last week or so, I've gone back to making all my bars with the same recipe and either unscented/uncolored or very simple solid color bars with colors and fragrances I know behave well. Fewer variables to figure out what's causing the problem if it persists.

*Knock wood* so far, no spots on bars made after the old castor oil was used up. We'll see if that trend continues over the next few weeks and months.

 

[AliOop]

@Barefoot Farm Girl especially since you hope to sell some day, now is a good time to stop using “water as percent of oils” and switch to “lye concentration.”

That will give you a more consistent amount of water as you scale up and down, and make it easier to calculate in general.

Setting lye concentration at 33% is a good place to start. From there, you can raise the concentration if you want to use less water, and vice versa.

 

[merrysoap]

@Barefoot Farm Girl especially since you hope to sell some day, now is a good time to stop using “water as percent of oils” and switch to “lye concentration.”

That will give you a more consistent amount of water as you scale up and down, and make it easier to calculate in general.

@AliOop , thanks for the tip! And good timing. I was literally watching a video about using lye concentration vs. water as % oils vs. lye:water ratio right after I posted that message

 

[Becky1024]

If you are able, make a small batch with exactly the same lots of all your raw materials EXCEPT the old castor oil. Use brand new castor oil instead. Use the same molds, cure the same way, etc. Then monitor for DOS. If no DOS in the same time period, your old castor oil was definitely the cause. I'm a chemist with a QA background so I love doing geeky detective work!

 

[merrysoap]

If you are able, make a small batch with exactly the same lots of all your raw materials EXCEPT the old castor oil. Use brand new castor oil instead. Use the same molds, cure the same way, etc. Then monitor for DOS. If no DOS in the same time period, your old castor oil was definitely the cause. I'm a chemist with a QA background so I love doing geeky detective work!

@Becky1024 , excellent, great to have a chemist on the team! Thanks!