New needs help with a shaving soap recipe?

[spacetransient]

Thanks for all who helped me in the last newbie thread: "Newbie ready to mix!"- where I had already picked out a recipe of dubious efficacy.

Main points of feedback were:
1) Are you sure you want this recipe?- it's not really a shaving soap!
2) Wouldn't it be better to start with something simpler anyway?

So with that out of the way I would like to make a new (newbie) introduction to the thoughtful members who took their time to read and post for me then:
For the purposes of this forum, this is who I am- the pictures below tell the story: :shh:

As some of the wet shavers might notice- I modified/made a couple of things here. Anything can be improved upon but sometimes they are not worth the effort. Well I know. Trying to make a better soap may turn out to be an example...

This soap recipe is currently the best I have tried- because I am cheap and refuse to spend over $3 and ounce. Needed encouragement for that. It's obviously too complex for me.

What I like about this shave soap:
Excellent cushion: 95%
Very good conditioning: 90%
Good slip: 85%
Vegan (I'll end up with extra to gift away to anyone who wants it)

What could be improved:
Slip
Maybe too dense a lather? Have I adapted to inferior more "soapy" soaps?
Any soap I buy or make must melt or cram into my mug!! No exceptions!!!
I did not put in my favorite scent.

I am here for the sole purpose of making my own shaving soap. I will only practice on shaving soaps and if necessary I am willing to do a dozen or more batches to get it right or call it quits!!:-(

Songwinds thread must be the longest, most respected thread of it's kind in current internet history. I salute him and all who participated.

Would a stearic acid/coconut oil/KOH/glycerin recipe be a good place to begin or do others have another tweak or recommendation I should consider?

Thanks for listening! Your comments are most welcome!!

 

[JustBeachy]

Welcome back for round two. I'm thinking developing a great shaving soap might be more than a 12 round fight. I don't claim to be an expert on shaving soap, and in all honesty, not really sure I care to be. But I do like shaving with the ones I've made and I love the experimentation. Here's some points from my experiments so far. Take them for what they're worth.

I use a sodium and potassium hydroxide blend, like your brand is showing. I like the harder puck.
I listen to others, but try not to discount ingredients because a portion of the soapers believe they shouldn't be part of a good soap. For example:

Lots don't want butter in the soap, due to it supposedly disrupting lather. I use Shea in the recipe I like the best for it's "after the shave" feel on my face. It lathers like a dream. I notice the one you have posted has three butters. haha

I've played with the glycerin levels, when I add them as well as substituting clays. I'm leaning towards actually liking the clays better at this point. Hard to explain, but they both provide slip, while the clay seems to give me more of a "controlled slip".

Latest addition to my experiments has been the substitution of coconut milk for 60% of the liquid. At two weeks, I like the soap a lot, but I'd like to see it at 4 and 6 weeks before I make a final decision.


Thoughts on the soap you have pictured. The first thoughts I had were, why three different butters, why all the different oils. Are they creating a superfatting mixture? The dock and maca root is an interesting addition. I'm looking forward to hearing your results.

Welcome to the madness.

 

[Susie]

Welcome to the madness, indeed! While I don't make shaving soap, I do know when someone has the same signs of addiction as I do. So, don't limit yourself to a dozen batches, or just one type of soap. You will always be thinking..."what if".... and will be off to the computer to run a recipe through a calculator. And buying different oils each time you see something new. Then you have to test that....and it goes on and on in a vicious cycle. That is the beauty of soapmaking, there is always something new to try.

Welcome to the addiction!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

If it has to be soft enough to smoosh, then you might want to have more KOH than NaOH - at 50/50 I find it quite hard already, so going more the other way might be more to your liking.

If you like the butters, I would start off with a mix of the stearic, co and then a butter with a mix of KOH and NaOH.

 

[LBussy]

That soap's ingredient list is ... well let's just say not correct. I already went several rounds with the "soaper's" fanboys where I proved that 1) he lies and 2) fanboys don't care. So, if you like that, great, just don't use the ingredients list as a model.

If you shave with a straight especially, forget the lather p0rn. You need more water added. Go for stiff peaks, then add water a little at a time till you get yogurt. That will give you the slip you want provided the soap is capable. Far too many people use far too little water to be comfortable.

I don't know what your recipe is/was but I agree with the use of butters to 10%. Glycerin to about 14% is where I am. Clay has no place in my soap and I've explained my reasons previously. If glycerin is not slippery enough you need to add more water to the lather.

On the keeping it simple side, I use 100% KOH, it "smooshes" very well, and with my process I can mold it if desired (but I prefer tubs).

Would a stearic acid/coconut oil/KOH/glycerin recipe be a good place to begin or do others have another tweak or recommendation I should consider?

I recommend something like:

• 45% Stearic Acid
• 25% Coconut Oil
• 20% Beef Tallow
• 10% butters (shea, lanolin, whatever you like)

The difference between a straight SA/CO soap and one with some tallow is night and day in my experience. I almost feel sorry for people who choose to be vegan because the soap is just better with tallow.

 

[spacetransient]

Welcome back for round two. I'm thinking developing a great shaving soap might be more than a 12 round fight. I don't claim to be an expert on shaving soap, and in all honesty, not really sure I care to be. But I do like shaving with the ones I've made and I love the experimentation. Here's some points from my experiments so far. Take them for what they're worth.

I use a sodium and potassium hydroxide blend, like your brand is showing. I like the harder puck.
I listen to others, but try not to discount ingredients because a portion of the soapers believe they shouldn't be part of a good soap. For example:

Lots don't want butter in the soap, due to it supposedly disrupting lather. I use Shea in the recipe I like the best for it's "after the shave" feel on my face. It lathers like a dream. I notice the one you have posted has three butters. haha

I've played with the glycerin levels, when I add them as well as substituting clays. I'm leaning towards actually liking the clays better at this point. Hard to explain, but they both provide slip, while the clay seems to give me more of a "controlled slip".

Latest addition to my experiments has been the substitution of coconut milk for 60% of the liquid. At two weeks, I like the soap a lot, but I'd like to see it at 4 and 6 weeks before I make a final decision.


Thoughts on the soap you have pictured. The first thoughts I had were, why three different butters, why all the different oils. Are they creating a superfatting mixture? The dock and maca root is an interesting addition. I'm looking forward to hearing your results.

Welcome to the madness.

Fun madness hopefully!

I am thinking there was a lot of tweaking going on with this formula- which is based on another similar one- both well regarded by shavers. I have no desire to attempt it- I will just be using it as a "control" or "baseline" for evaluating my concoctions.

Everything I read points to a mix of hydroxide's as well- I was thinking 70/30-KOH/NaOH to start
Because of the accolades in the forum- It just makes sense to begin with the Songwind formula and radiate from there.

And yes, I am probably looking at a lot more than a dozen batches. Waking up this morning I realized the person I borrowed the above cake from would make a perfect sounding board- So I can bounce a test cake off his opinion for each batch.
My jewelers scale- good for 500 grams total will now be enjoying 8oz increments of mix; 2 dishes at a time. One for me and one for feedback.

This will be time consuming but engaging. Thanks for the feedback JustBeachy- I will keep everyone informed of decisions and progress...

Welcome to the madness...Welcome to the addiction!

Oh dear- I am ADDHD afflicted already!!:crazy:

If it has to be soft enough to smoosh, then you might want to have more KOH than NaOH - at 50/50 I find it quite hard already, so going more the other way might be more to your liking.

If you like the butters, I would start off with a mix of the stearic, co and then a butter with a mix of KOH and NaOH.

Hopefully I will find out what I like after some experiments- the butters have been good for me.
From your experience, would a 70/30 hydroxide mix for the Songwind recipe be soft enough to "smoosh"? And if I end up adding say 10% butter like Shea or Coco would it still smoosh?.

Thanks for your feedback!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Hopefully I will find out what I like after some experiments- the butters have been good for me.
From your experience, would a 70/30 hydroxide mix for the Songwind recipe be soft enough to "smoosh"? And if I end up adding say 10% butter like Shea or Coco would it still smoosh?.

Thanks for your feedback!

70% KOH? Should be very smooshable.

A tip for trying different things is to use plastic Tupperware type pots - put 3 or 4 (as many as fit) in to a slow cooker full of boiling water. That way you can try smaller batches of different recipes rather than making a lot of something that you don't feel quite does it for you.

 

[spacetransient]

That soap's ingredient list is ... well let's just say not correct. I already went several rounds with the "soaper's" fanboys where I proved that 1) he lies and 2) fanboys don't care. So, if you like that, great, just don't use the ingredients list as a model.

If you shave with a straight especially, forget the lather p0rn. You need more water added. Go for stiff peaks, then add water a little at a time till you get yogurt. That will give you the slip you want provided the soap is capable. Far too many people use far too little water to be comfortable.

I don't know what your recipe is/was but I agree with the use of butters to 10%. Glycerin to about 14% is where I am. Clay has no place in my soap and I've explained my reasons previously. If glycerin is not slippery enough you need to add more water to the lather.

On the keeping it simple side, I use 100% KOH, it "smooshes" very well, and with my process I can mold it if desired (but I prefer tubs).


I recommend something like:

• 45% Stearic Acid
• 25% Coconut Oil
• 20% Beef Tallow
• 10% butters (shea, lanolin, whatever you like)

The difference between a straight SA/CO soap and one with some tallow is night and day in my experience. I almost feel sorry for people who choose to be vegan because the soap is just better with tallow.

Great post Lee! That's why I am here and it is the right place to be.:clap:

I will try the Songwind recipe first with a hydroxide mix, then when I get a batch that turns out well, I will use that as another control example to test your recipe against. Many thanks!!

 

[JustBeachy]

Fun madness hopefully!

I am thinking there was a lot of tweaking going on with this formula- which is based on another similar one- both well regarded by shavers. I have no desire to attempt it- I will just be using it as a "control" or "baseline" for evaluating my concoctions.

Everything I read points to a mix of hydroxide's as well- I was thinking 70/30-KOH/NaOH to start
Because of the accolades in the forum- It just makes sense to begin with the Songwind formula and radiate from there.

And yes, I am probably looking at a lot more than a dozen batches. Waking up this morning I realized the person I borrowed the above cake from would make a perfect sounding board- So I can bounce a test cake off his opinion for each batch.
My jewelers scale- good for 500 grams total will now be enjoying 8oz increments of mix; 2 dishes at a time. One for me and one for feedback.

This will be time consuming but engaging. Thanks for the feedback JustBeachy- I will keep everyone informed of decisions and progress...

Sounds like you're ready to have some fun. Having some people you can use as "test" subjects is a perfect environment. Opinions are like....uh noses, we all have one. And no where is that more apparent than in these shaving soap threads. haha Truth is, different people are going to have different skins, and different needs. I'm pretty sure, there is no one shave soap, ingredient, etc. that is the universal "correct" answer. I find most people can be biased toward their own favorites. In my opinion, have multiple people test your soaps and give feedback, is going to provide you with much more accurate feedback.

Like I said in your first post, listen to everyone, but don't take anyone's opinion's as gospel, until you test it for yourself. For example, the use of clay has pretty strong opinions on both sides. Ask Craig what he thinks of "mud". haha I've been experimenting with both, and I'm still undecided. He does have some knowledgeable input on shaving soap and can be a good "open minded" sounding board. Some of the other "experts", I pretty much take with a grain of salt.

If any of us had already developed the perfect shave soap, we'd have it out on the market. We'd be making enough money to be sitting on a beach somewhere, drinking margarita's and getting some sun on our baby smooth, shaved faces.

Good luck and Merry Christmas.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

......the use of clay has pretty strong opinions on both sides. Ask Craig what he thinks of "mud". haha.....,.
....

Tis true! I just got turned off to it one day by the idea of it blunting blades - since then I just can't seem to shake the idea. Pretty certain it can work as well from the feel - or better for some, even - but I get a good result without it.

 

[Seawolfe]

For playing around with scents, its easy to split your test batches up after the cook and add your smells after it cools a bit. My last batch I tried 4 diff scents and my next batch will expound on the favorites into 4 more different smells. So far simple Cedar is my favorite, but hubby likes Eucalyptus and Mint.

 

[spacetransient]

For playing around with scents, its easy to split your test batches up after the cook and add your smells after it cools a bit. My last batch I tried 4 diff scents and my next batch will expound on the favorites into 4 more different smells. So far simple Cedar is my favorite, but hubby likes Eucalyptus and Mint.

Thanks for the input!

I realize scents are another complex challenge- one where we are often trying to please others as well as ourselves, should the scent linger much past the shave...

Best for me to pass on that for now and keep focused on other characteristics of the soap until I have decided on a recipe and gotten to the :tweaking" stage.. Then I can start out simple, with some of your suggestions. If test batches smell poorly unscented, I may wish to reconsider!

70% KOH? Should be very smooshable.

A tip for trying different things is to use plastic Tupperware type pots - put 3 or 4 (as many as fit) in to a slow cooker full of boiling water. That way you can try smaller batches of different recipes rather than making a lot of something that you don't feel quite does it for you.

Yep-
the silicone muffin pan idea isn't quite as convenient is it? I just ordered (20) 2-1/2"x1-1/2" round food grade microwavable mini-containers w/tops.
Looks like my jewelers scale is really going to be needed. But it's nice not to waste too much product on learning and tests.

Good advice- Thanks!

 

[DeeAnna]

Not only is the smell of a fragrance important ... but I think it's important to keep in mind the irritation potential of essential oils and fragrance oils. You might have a great soap, you might love how it smells, but if the fragrance causes your skin to burn or itch, it's not going to be a winner.

 

[JustBeachy]

Thanks for the input!

I realize scents are another complex challenge- one where we are often trying to please others as well as ourselves, should the scent linger much past the shave...

Best for me to pass on that for now and keep focused on other characteristics of the soap until I have decided on a recipe and gotten to the :tweaking" stage.. Then I can start out simple, with some of your suggestions. If test batches smell poorly unscented, I may wish to reconsider!

I think it could go either way here. On one side, it's a great idea to keep the ingredients simple and change one thing at a time, when building a recipe. Allows you to pinpoint the differences in relation to the change.

On the other hand, if you're adding your scent after the cook, it shouldn't effect the quality of the soap. And it gives you the chance to try out some different scents. As long as, like DeeAnna points out, it's not a skin irritating scent or amount of EO.

You seem to be very comfortable in the process, and I'll bet you'll know exactly when to start playing with the scents.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Susie]

When using scents in a "mostly" KOH soap, start with the idea that less is more. You can always add more scent to the batch, but you would have to make another batch of unscented soap to reduce the scent. This is one huge benefit to "smooshable" paste. Much more adjustable than bar soaps.

 

[spacetransient]

When using scents in a "mostly" KOH soap, start with the idea that less is more. You can always add more scent to the batch, but you would have to make another batch of unscented soap to reduce the scent. This is one huge benefit to "smooshable" paste. Much more adjustable than bar soaps.

Thanks Susie- but that calls for a newbie clarification -o):
So I can adequately blend in more scent as required later just by kneading in more like flower into dough?

Not only is the smell of a fragrance important ... but I think it's important to keep in mind the irritation potential of essential oils and fragrance oils. You might have a great soap, you might love how it smells, but if the fragrance causes your skin to burn or itch, it's not going to be a winner.

That just seems to confirm "simpler is better" when trying to do a recipe until I know how all the parts are interacting. I might for instance have a mild irritation to a scent then misinterpret that as a sign of inadequate skin conditioners and start changing an otherwise good formula- for the worse?

But if I try out two or three scents following an otherwise successful recipe with the same ingredients I can know the EO's/FO's affects on me and rule them out should irritation be noticed in later experiments?

I sure hope it is a rare occurrence for ingredients to interact and cause irritation or we could surely go nuts developing recipes...:crazy:

 

[DeeAnna]

Yes, you can knead it in by hand or use a heavy duty stand mixer -- Kitchenaid -- and mix it in with the paddle attachment.

As far as ingredient interaction ... many folks end up making their own soap to get away from ingredients in commercial cleansers that cause irritation and unusual dryness. So I suspect this issue is more common than we'd like to believe.

 

[LBussy]

Tis true! I just got turned off to it one day by the idea of it blunting blades - since then I just can't seem to shake the idea. Pretty certain it can work as well from the feel - or better for some, even - but I get a good result without it.

I experimented a little with clay using a DE - I won't sacrifice my straights. :razz: I don't know for a fact that clay can dull a straight, but I do know some people use "diamond spray" to help get an edge and it's 0.1 micron. Clay is larger than that and not uniform. Granted. clay is softer than a true abrasive but so is skin and skin dulls razors too.

Anyway, one of the things I wanted to test in these experiences was the experience some folks reported of clay being smoother than just/more glycerin. What I discovered is clay sometimes makes a soap that is somewhat less thirsty. Glycerin is a humectant but it is also hydrophilic so it will "consume" water in the mix.

It is very common for people to not use enough water when using real shaving soap. There are some soaps which are "okay" with less water, but the best experience is obtained when enough water is added. So an "okay" soap can be "okay" with less water and that same shaver may think a really great soap is not as good because they don't work it correctly. Take both those soaps and add ample water and better soap really starts to shine.

So it's all still very personal. I know at least one person who thinks wetter soap is "too messy" and he prefers his "okay" soap that will give a passable shave with less water. I guess people need to do what they think they need to do. I prefer to add all the water a soap can handle, and I'll experiment to find what that is before I try shaving with it.

I believe all this talk about moisturizing is a moot point if you don't have the water in there to begin with. Oils/butters/fats can help seal in skin moisture, but if you've not got enough water at the start it's a loser's game.

 

[LBussy]

Yes, you can knead it in by hand or use a heavy duty stand mixer -- Kitchenaid -- and mix it in with the paddle attachment.

When I get done with my cook I need to add in the FO like pronto. I believe I cook near all the water out so when it cooks it's quite hard. There's a fine line between adding the FO to hot soap and having my house but not the soap smell as I want it, and having it so cool I can't get it mixed in. (Some of my FO's have a very low flash point)

 

[JustBeachy]

I experimented a little with clay using a DE - I won't sacrifice my straights. :razz: I don't know for a fact that clay can dull a straight, but I do know some people use "diamond spray" to help get an edge and it's 0.1 micron. Clay is larger than that and not uniform. Granted. clay is softer than a true abrasive but so is skin and skin dulls razors too.

Anyway, one of the things I wanted to test in these experiences was the experience some folks reported of clay being smoother than just/more glycerin. What I discovered is clay sometimes makes a soap that is somewhat less thirsty. Glycerin is a humectant but it is also hydrophilic so it will "consume" water in the mix.

It is very common for people to not use enough water when using real shaving soap. There are some soaps which are "okay" with less water, but the best experience is obtained when enough water is added. So an "okay" soap can be "okay" with less water and that same shaver may think a really great soap is not as good because they don't work it correctly. Take both those soaps and add ample water and better soap really starts to shine.

So it's all still very personal. I know at least one person who thinks wetter soap is "too messy" and he prefers his "okay" soap that will give a passable shave with less water. I guess people need to do what they think they need to do. I prefer to add all the water a soap can handle, and I'll experiment to find what that is before I try shaving with it.

I believe all this talk about moisturizing is a moot point if you don't have the water in there to begin with. Oils/butters/fats can help seal in skin moisture, but if you've not got enough water at the start it's a loser's game.

I just tried this with one of my shave soaps. Lathered up the soap, with the "normal" technique I do, then used it to shave half my face. Then practically doubled the water, (didn't really measure, just used what I considered a lot of water), lathered it up and shaved the other side.

I know it's a simple test, and there could be other variables, but I have to agree with Bussy's comments here. The "wetter" lather shaved better. Slicker, closer with a single pass, and my face felt better afterwards.

Again, not all inclusive as a test. But at first try I would say Bussy is on the money with the water amount making a big difference.