Need some help identifying a soap issue

[PatrickH]

I made a 1 lb. Test Batch.
I done a lot of reading before making this batch and added the % according to the oil properties I was looking for in my soap.
It probably looks like I just added all of whatever, but there was a lot of thinking in this soap. Anyway..
Here's my issue.
My soap is just a few day old.
It's HP hand and body soap.
Lather great, feels good when hands are wet and after drying off they look super moisturized. 20+ minutes later, my skin feels tight and dry.. they also have that Palm kernel flake residue feel to them. If you get a bunch of pkf on your hands when handling, you might know what I'm trying to describe.
If I look closely at my skin, make it tight and lightly scratch my nail across my skin, I can see it is a bit dry, dryer then it should be.

What do you think may be wrong with this recipe?
My guess is that it may be the fragrance oil and how my skin is reacting to it.
Or the Lanolin
Or the PKF
Or my skin itself is not being nice right now. Over washing? Too hot of water?
What are your thoughts?

Here's a image of the recipe.
I added 5g of each after the cook of mango butter and Kukui oil.
Kaolin Clay will not be use in next test batch.

 

[Kittish]

It might just be a case of you're trying to use it too soon. Even hot process soap needs time to cure, as long or longer than cold process does. Curing isn't just about letting the soap saponify fully, or even just letting the water evaporate out. The crystal structure also changes as it cures, which effects how well the soap feels and works.

I'd bet the biggest culprits are the combined amounts of the coconut oil, PKO and stearic acid. You probably don't actually need that much cleansing power. You could maybe switch a combined total of about 10% of those to something more conditioning, like the avocado or olive oil. The cocoa butter may be adding to the effect as well. It's given soap I've made with it a kind of draggy feel. The clay may also be a contributing factor to drying your skin.

If you're basing your formulation in part or in whole on the property numbers SoapCalc gives you, keep in mind that they are only a guideline. They don't tell you the whole story, not by a long shot. Lots of really great soaps have numbers that look horrid in SoapCalc (castille, I'm lookin' at you).

 

[neonstudy]

For me personally, that cleansing number is too high. It might be because I have hard water, or because I have dry skin. I usually like a below the range cleansing number, like maybe 5-12. So for example, I might put up to 15% coconut oil, but definitely no more. So you could experiment, and reduce your coconut oil or your PKO to no more than 15% total.

 

[PatrickH]

.

Makes sense to me, thank you
I will make a few adjustments based on all you said and give it more cure time.

Ok. I will try and get the cleansing numbers down a bit and make some adjustments.

 

[Obsidian]

The cleansing number is way too high for me too. I try to keep it at 10-15 and I can't use clay either, dries my skin out terrible. I really suggest a simple recipe with no additives. Once you find a recipe you like, then start adding extras but only one at a time. If you use a bunch of additives and the soap doesn't agree with your skin, you'll not know what caused it.

I'm not a fan of stearic acid either, it can leave a waxy feel to the skin. 2% shouldn't normally be a issue but add in all those butters and residue is a possibility.

What kind of a soap are you after? Do you have dry skin? Are you sticking to veggie only or is animal fats ok? Maybe we can help you formulate a more balanced soap.

I'd also suggest you drop the SF down to 5%. With the lanolin and shea, there are already a lot of unsaponifiables in this soap.

 

[psfred]

I would either drop back to the well known "30, 30, 30" formulation of coconut oil, olive oil, and palm oil (or at least put that in SoapCalc and look at the fatty acid profile) or greatly reduce both the unsaponifiables and coconut oil.

Compared to the soaps I like, you have too much lauric and myristic acids and not enough palmitic and stearic. Too much "stuff" too, I think.

My favorite recipe at the moment is 80% lard or GV tallow shortening (or just tallow), 15% coconut oil, and 5% olive or high oleic safflower oil. Works great for me, but I don't have dry skin. My mother was complaining of itching from dry skin, and so I made her a couple soaps with much more conditioning that she likes. One has shea and cocoa butter at 5% each, and half added after the cook as superfat. It's a bit sticky when you first dry off, but it leaves an almost lotion feel after drying. I do the same thing with shaving soap, works great.

I would also ditch the clay, it's known to cause the sensation of dry skin in some people, particularly if you have lots of residual fats (it won't wash off well, so stays behind).

I'll second Obsidian: Try a simple recipe first, then see what helps with additives. High lard content and superfat around 5% usually makes for a very nice soap with enough conditioning for most people. I use 3% superfat, I hate greasy feeling soaps.

 

[toxikon]

Keep in mind that even the most well-formulated recipe will feel drying on the hands if used too soon. They need at least 4 weeks to mellow out. I'll echo others that a simpler recipe would be wise, so you can get a feel for what each oil brings to the table. And take the SoapCalc values with a grain of salt, I don't even look at those numbers. I just tried simple recipes that forum members recommended and slowly tweaked to my own preferences.

 

[penelopejane]

You have 7% SF built into the recipe and you added more SF oils?

Make a simpler soap 5% SF no clay, no additives and wait four weeks before you judge it.
OO/PO/CO/Castor 35/30/30/5

then try:
OO 35%/Palm 30%/Coconut Oil 10%/Avocado 20%/Castor 5%

Then try adding 1/2 tsp of clay and see what you think.

The drying additives you have in your soap are CO, clay and PKO and some find PO drying.

Maybe try either Cocoa butter OR shea butter.
I don't use any oil or butter at less than 5%.

Everyone's skin is different so what suits me might not suit you.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...according to the oil properties I was looking for in my soap..."

A beginner mistake is to think the properties of the fats carry over into the soap. They don't. The fats are split apart into fatty acids to make soap.

The tiny bits of fat left over (aka superfat) modify the performance of the soap by reducing its cleansing power (and its lathering abililty). This fat largely washes down the drain -- very little actually remains on the skin. Use your expensive kikui oil in a nice lotion or body butter -- it's going to do far more for your skin if used in a leave-on product than in soap.

Soap cleans -- it does not "moisturize". Frankly, you can raise the superfat as high as is practical and use all the exotic fats you want, and still end up with dry, ashy skin.

The main goals to shoot for in a good soap recipe are to sufficiently clean the skin while being sufficiently mild and non irritating. You can reach those goals with just 2 or 3 fats just as easily (and maybe more easily) than you can by using 11.

 

[PatrickH]

Ok. Thank you for all that information from everyone. I'll make a completely new recipe. Half my ingrediants I have I got for use in shaving soap.
I wanted to try using everything in a soap to see what it would do, since if I didn't, I would always wonder, so I got that out of the way.
With superfating, its more like a cleansing buffer then a moisterizer?
So if my numbers look good, but cleansing is too high, I can bring down the cleansing by adding SF without having to adjust my ingredients, but not going higher then around 7%?

 

[Obsidian]

yes, SF is more of a cleansing buffer then a moisturizer. No, increasing SF will not lower the cleansing number, to lower cleansing, you need to adjust the amount of cleansing oils used such as coconut or palm kernel.

 

[PatrickH]

yes, SF is more of a cleansing buffer then a moisturizer. No, increasing SF will not lower the cleansing number, to lower cleansing, you need to adjust the amount of cleansing oils used such as coconut or palm kernel.

Yes, that is what I understood. Thank you
My next batch should be much better after reading all the information in this post.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

In addition to what everybody else said (which agree with) the tea will add tannins, which can feel astringent and drying.

 

[PatrickH]

Trying to formulate a recipe that leaves your skin feeling soft and refreshed with no residue feeling leftover.
My soap making plans are a winter bar, a summer bar and a garden/mechanics soap.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Residue feeling will have a lot to do with whether your water is hard, and if so how hard. If you don't have softened or naturally soft water you're going to be leaving behind soap scum no matter what.

 

[penelopejane]

Trying to formulate a recipe that leaves your skin feeling soft and refreshed with no residue feeling leftover.
My soap making plans are a winter bar, a summer bar and a garden/mechanics soap.

Once you have a simpler recipe I find that the "residue feeling" is reduced if you use a much lower SF and maybe add Citric Acid.

For the garden/mechanics soap try 35/30/30/5 OO/palm/coconut/castor with coffee grounds. My farmer friends love it.

 

[PatrickH]

Once you have a simpler recipe I find that the "residue feeling" is reduced if you use a much lower SF and maybe add Citric Acid.

For the garden/mechanics soap try 35/30/30/5 OO/palm/coconut/castor with coffee grounds. My farmer friends love it.

Thank you I will give that a shot and see how it works.
Is the Citric Acid the same for candy making?
I need some for candy and hope to be able to use the same product.

 

[Arimara]

Thank you I will give that a shot and see how it works.
Is the Citric Acid the same for candy making?
I need some for candy and hope to be able to use the same product.

That it is but there is some math to be used to account for any neutralized NaOH. I'd tell you but I don't use citric acid in soap and I sux at maff

 

[PatrickH]

I'm sure I could figure it out when the time comes.
Thank you for that bit of info, I'm really looking forward to reading more about it when I have a bit more sit down time.

 

[psfred]

Tetrasodium EDTA will also reduce the soap scum effect, although if you have water as hard as mine is, nothing is going to remove it completely. It's easier to use than citric acid as no compensation is needed for lye consumption.