Natural Colorants vs Micas/Oxides

[gigisiguenza]

I know there are number codes on the bottom of the various plastic things I see, and I've been careful to only use #2 or #5, but how do you know what kind of plastic it is? I have no clue where to look to tell if something is hdpe or nalgene etc.

 

[kchaystack]

The number tells you what kind of plastic it is (the chart is near the bottom of the page):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_recycling

 

[tbeck3579]

I master-batch my lye solution for long-term storage (@ 50% concentration) in re-purposed laundry detergent bottles made from HDPE #2 (recycle code), and it works just fine.

IrishLass

Why at a 50%? I was thinking it would be easier/faster, but if I still need to mix the other half it doesn't seem like a big time saver. I know I'm probably missing the obvious, but I would rather ask then remain ignorant :-? The only thing that popped into my head was to save time on the cooling, but if you are mixing the other half???
http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[kchaystack]

Why at a 50%? I was thinking it would be easier/faster, but if I still need to mix the other half it doesn't seem like a big time saver. I know I'm probably missing the obvious, but I would rather ask then remain ignorant :-? The only thing that popped into my head was to save time on the cooling, but if you are mixing the other half???
http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

A 50% solution is the strongest you can make. Any more lye and it will start coming out of solution.

At 50% it is fairly simple (once you are used to it) to alter to the concentration you want. You might want to soap a castile at 40% so it traces faster. Or you might want to use a different liquid to make up the other part of the solution (aloe, coffee, beer, milk). If you want to do a full water replacement you can concentrate your other liquid or use more powdered milks.

all you can do if you mix up a 33% solution is add milk power.... So no adding beer or aloe because that will change the solution concentration.

 

[tbeck3579]

A 50% solution is the strongest you can make. Any more lye and it will start coming out of solution.

At 50% it is fairly simple (once you are used to it) to alter to the concentration you want. You might want to soap a castile at 40% so it traces faster. Or you might want to use a different liquid to make up the other part of the solution (aloe, coffee, beer, milk). If you want to do a full water replacement you can concentrate your other liquid or use more powdered milks.

all you can do if you mix up a 33% solution is add milk power.... So no adding beer or aloe because that will change the solution concentration.

Oh, I see -- my brain went to 1/2 the strength a recipe requires. I'm glad I asked and thanks so much for explaining it to me. My brain doesn't quickly embrace "soap talk" yet. I just got used to everyone talking about the percentage of oils I'd rather look stupid for a moment by asking a stupid question then to spend the rest of my life not knowing. Thanks for the help and the gentle nudge in the right direction without making me look silly (I tend to do that well without any help :?). You are sharp as a tack!

 

[IrishLass]

Why at a 50%? I was thinking it would be easier/faster, but if I still need to mix the other half it doesn't seem like a big time saver. I know I'm probably missing the obvious, but I would rather ask then remain ignorant :-? The only thing that popped into my head was to save time on the cooling, but if you are mixing the other half???

Ditto everything Kchaystack said.

To explain further, the reason why I (and many others) master-batch a 50% lye solution this way is because it really does simplify things. If it didn't, I definitely wouldn't do it, I can assure you (I'm always looking for an (upstanding) easy way out of things if possible, lol).

The main way in which it simplifies things for me is that it cuts out the 1 step that is the most annoying and that takes me the most time to do when making a batch of soap. When I mix my lye solution, I go the extra mile with safety precautions, not only in the protective gear I wear, but also in making sure my mixing area will be free and clear of other living beings for a certain amount of time. My hubby especially doesn't appreciate being anywhere near my mixing vicinity when I mix lye - even for hours afterwards (he hates the smell of it, and he has a nose like a bloodhound or a pregnant woman that can smell the lingering effects of it long after everyone else has ceased to detect it).

If I had to go through that kind of rigmarole every time I felt the call of the stick-blender, it would drive me to frustration and I would cease to love making soap so much anymore. Mixing up one large master-batch at a time to last me through several batches of soap has been a life saver for me.

Why a 50% solution specifically, instead of a 33% or a 40%, for example? Because the math is easy (see- I'm looking for that easy way out again! lol)

To explain, when I make soap, I don't always use the same lye concentration every time. Although I mostly like to use a 33% solution, sometimes I use higher concentration than that and sometimes I use lower depending on my formula and/or FO. If I were to make up a large 33% master-batch solution and then one day decide I wanted to make a soap with a 31.5% lye solution, I would drive myself insane trying to figure out how much of my master-batch solution to weigh out and how much extra water to add to it in order to convert it over to 31.5%. I'm just not that masochistic and self-loathing. lol

A 50% lye solution is made up of equal parts of lye and water by weight: 50% lye and 50% water, which makes the math of converting the master-batch solution to a different % solution childsplay. All that it takes to convert the 50% solution to whatever concentration I desire is to perform a simple 2-part math equation that any 1st-grader can do (or even kindergartener) and that works the same every time across the board no matter what different solution % I wish to convert to. It's my favorite kind of math equation, and it only takes a mere 5 seconds to do!.

So, whenever I feel the call of the stickblender, I take 5 seconds to do the math equation for my batch, take my jug of lye solution and weigh out the proper amount, and then I weigh out the proper amount of extra water, and proceed with soaping. I don't have to clear the house, I don't have to take extra precautions against the fumes (because there aren't any fumes), I don't have to wait for the solution to cool down, etc...). It's just a win/win method for me in every way.


HTH!
IrishLass

 

[kchaystack]

Oh, I see -- my brain went to 1/2 the strength a recipe requires. I'm glad I asked and thanks so much for explaining it to me. My brain doesn't quickly embrace "soap talk" yet. I just got used to everyone talking about the percentage of oils I'd rather look stupid for a moment by asking a stupid question then to spend the rest of my life not knowing. Thanks for the help and the gentle nudge in the right direction without making me look silly (I tend to do that well without any help :?). You are sharp as a tack!

You do not look stupid at all, and I am sorry if my post came across as inferring that.

I am not that sharp, I have just been reading the posts here longer than you and we have gone over this before. My memory for important things is terrible. But stuff about hobbies I enjoy or totally useless information about pop culture - well lets just say I am a dangerous opponent in Trivial Pursuit.

 

[tbeck3579]

Ditto everything Kchaystack said.

To explain further, the reason why I (and many others) master-batch a 50% lye solution this way is because it really does simplify things. If it didn't, I definitely wouldn't do it, I can assure you (I'm always looking for an (upstanding) easy way out of things if possible, lol).

The main way in which it simplifies things for me is that it cuts out the 1 step that is the most annoying and that takes me the most time to do when making a batch of soap. When I mix my lye solution, I go the extra mile with safety precautions, not only in the protective gear I wear, but also in making sure my mixing area will be free and clear of other living beings for a certain amount of time. My hubby especially doesn't appreciate being anywhere near my mixing vicinity when I mix lye - even for hours afterwards (he hates the smell of it, and he has a nose like a bloodhound or a pregnant woman that can smell the lingering effects of it long after everyone else has ceased to detect it).

If I had to go through that kind of rigmarole every time I felt the call of the stick-blender, it would drive me to frustration and I would cease to love making soap so much anymore. Mixing up one large master-batch at a time to last me through several batches of soap has been a life saver for me.

Why a 50% solution specifically, instead of a 33% or a 40%, for example? Because the math is easy (see- I'm looking for that easy way out again! lol)

To explain, when I make soap, I don't always use the same lye concentration every time. Although I mostly like to use a 33% solution, sometimes I use higher concentration than that and sometimes I use lower depending on my formula and/or FO. If I were to make up a large 33% master-batch solution and then one day decide I wanted to make a soap with a 31.5% lye solution, I would drive myself insane trying to figure out how much of my master-batch solution to weigh out and how much extra water to add to it in order to convert it over to 31.5%. I'm just not that masochistic and self-loathing. lol

A 50% lye solution is made up of equal parts of lye and water by weight: 50% lye and 50% water, which makes the math of converting the master-batch solution to a different % solution childsplay. All that it takes to convert the 50% solution to whatever concentration I desire is to perform a simple 2-part math equation that any 1st-grader can do (or even kindergartener) and that works the same every time across the board no matter what different solution % I wish to convert to. It's my favorite kind of math equation, and it only takes a mere 5 seconds to do!.

So, whenever I feel the call of the stickblender, I take 5 seconds to do the math equation for my batch, take my jug of lye solution and weigh out the proper amount, and then I weigh out the proper amount of extra water, and proceed with soaping. I don't have to clear the house, I don't have to take extra precautions against the fumes (because there aren't any fumes), I don't have to wait for the solution to cool down, etc...). It's just a win/win method for me in every way.


HTH!
IrishLass

Thank you so much! It makes so much sense and does make life easier. I know what you mean about clearing the area of living things. I'll close the door to keep the dogs and DH out, but it never fails; if I'm in the kitchen he wants to know what's cookin'. In come the dogs and the DH, and it ceases to be a relaxing fun thing because I'm so worried about someone getting hurt.

Thanks so much for sharing that. I hadn't thought about making the lye up until adding colorants and making ahead came up. In fact, thanks everyone! Much appreciated for information on lye, containers, and colorant.
http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[gigisiguenza]

A 50% lye solution is made up of equal parts of lye and water by weight: 50% lye and 50% water, which makes the math of converting the master-batch solution to a different % solution childsplay. All that it takes to convert the 50% solution to whatever concentration I desire is to perform a simple 2-part math equation that any 1st-grader can do (or even kindergartener) and that works the same every time across the board no matter what different solution % I wish to convert to. It's my favorite kind of math equation, and it only takes a mere 5 seconds to do!.

So, whenever I feel the call of the stickblender, I take 5 seconds to do the math equation for my batch, take my jug of lye solution and weigh out the proper amount, and then I weigh out the proper amount of extra water, and proceed with soaping. I don't have to clear the house, I don't have to take extra precautions against the fumes (because there aren't any fumes), I don't have to wait for the solution to cool down, etc...). It's just a win/win method for me in every way.


HTH!
IrishLass

IL - I don't understand how this works. My soapcalc results will give me very specific amounts of water and lye to use based on my oils used. So I don't understand how this 50% solution works. I also don't understand how you take the 50% solution and make it a 26.953% solution. ( I used my last recipe as an example).

I'm so sorry if I'm being dense, but I just don't understand anni really want to because I would love to do the hazmat safety routine just once for several batches (I'm like you in this aspect of the soaping game lol).

TIA for the help

 

[tbeck3579]

You do not look stupid at all, and I am sorry if my post came across as inferring that.

I am not that sharp, I have just been reading the posts here longer than you and we have gone over this before. My memory for important things is terrible. But stuff about hobbies I enjoy or totally useless information about pop culture - well lets just say I am a dangerous opponent in Trivial Pursuit.

No it didn't at all! I am sincere and grateful. I have a very bad habit of saying it straight-up if I'm offended. I don't often do the "sarcastic" without a very blunt explanation. I am misinterpreted often so I try very hard never to make the back-handed remarks (unless you are family, then you know me, hehehe).

 

[TeresaT]

IL - I don't understand how this works. My soapcalc results will give me very specific amounts of water and lye to use based on my oils used. So I don't understand how this 50% solution works. I also don't understand how you take the 50% solution and make it a 26.953% solution. ( I used my last recipe as an example).

I'm so sorry if I'm being dense, but I just don't understand anni really want to because I would love to do the hazmat safety routine just once for several batches (I'm like you in this aspect of the soaping game lol).

TIA for the help

For kicks and giggles, will you post a screen shot of your recipe that has a 26.953% solution? You "should" be able to take 2(lye weight) of your 50% solution and add to (water weight - lye weight) to get your correct dilution. at least that's my understanding of the way it works. I can't imagine doing the dilution without the SoapCalc figures to tell me what to put in there.

 

[DeeAnna]

TeresaT -- If you use "water as % of oils" when creating soap recipes, you will get weird lye concentrations because the lye concentration varies with the saponification value. The sap value is used to do the translation from water as % of oils to solution concentration. It would be entirely reasonable to set up a "full water" recipe and end up with a 26.953% lye solution concentration. Gigi was probably looking at a recipe pretty high in liquid (oleic and linoleic) fats, would be my guess.

gigisiguenza -- if you want to use a master batch of lye, then you will have fewer problems with your math if you start using lye solution concentration, not water as % of oils.

 

[IrishLass]

IL - I don't understand how this works. My soapcalc results will give me very specific amounts of water and lye to use based on my oils used. So I don't understand how this 50% solution works. I also don't understand how you take the 50% solution and make it a 26.953% solution. ( I used my last recipe as an example).

I'm so sorry if I'm being dense, but I just don't understand anni really want to because I would love to do the hazmat safety routine just once for several batches (I'm like you in this aspect of the soaping game lol).

Don't worry, Gigi. I know this all sound confusing right now, but you'll get it soon enough. DeeAnna hit the nail right on the head. If you want to use a 50% master-batch of lye and have the math conversion work for you, don't use the 'Water as % of Oils' icon on SoapCalc. Instead, use the 'Lye Concentration' icon (located just below it) which calculates your water amount based on the lye amount (instead of the oil amount). I don't know why SoapCalc still has the 2 different ways of calculating water on their site when one of them is clearly superior to the other (at least in my reckoning anyway). Having both causes nothing but confusion.

It wasn't so long ago that I was just as confused about all of this as you, but I learned that calculating water based on the lye amount instead of the oils amount is actually the better, more sensible way to calculate one's water amount, since water's 'first and foremost' function in soapmaking is as a carrier for the lye (because it's the lye that determines how much water is needed). It's the only way I'll calculate my water amount. When one calculates the water as a % of the oils, things can get a little goofy. See page 3 of this PDF to see why/how they get goofy: http://rivercitysoaps.com/dwcp/dwcp.pdf

Anyway, if you want to work from a 50% lye solution master-batch, you'll have to get used to seeing water in terms of lye concentration instead of oil amount. Otherwise the math won't work (or maybe it will, but it will be much too hard for the likes of me to figure out, that's for sure! lol ).

One of the easiest ways to familiarize yourself with lye concentrations is to have a look at your SoapCalc print-out sheet. Even if you used the 'water as % of oils' icon, it will show you on the print-out page what the lye concentration is for your batch.

Let me know if this helps!


IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

And here's a related thread on SMF that discusses lye concentration vs. water as % of oils: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53642

 

[tbeck3579]

First, I want to thank everyone for taking the time to patiently teach me how to do this. Wonderful people! When I forget there are still kind people in the world I need to come to SMF

If you aren't too bored with this thread :yawn: (I know you folks do this all the time so I hate to keep asking) can I ask a few more questions? Soapcalc defaults to water as percent of oils: 38. I really haven't had a problem with my soap recipes, even with all the teas, milks, additives at trace, etc, but I can see the many advantages of controlling the lye concentration (thank you for showing me!) Everything from controlling the trace and cure to master batching is simplified. I really want to learn how to do this correctly, but I don't want to waste ingredients by blindly messing with my recipes either.

1. Am I correct to say that most people typically use a 30% lye concentration for an "average" or "typical" soap recipe? I understand it varies between soap makers and ingredients, but typically or safely a default of 30% works most of the time?

2. Is there a "cheat sheet" or something I can refer to that would give me a generalized, overall view of how much to change a particular recipe based on what I want; slowing trace, or the quantity of a particular oil, using milk to get from 50% to 30%, the fragrance, etc. For example, if I'm having a senior moment (sigh, happens more often than I care to admit) and I forget if coconut oil or olive oil requires less lye, or which fragrance traces fast, my handy-dandy cheat-sheet can refresh my memory?

3. If I'm unsure about a particular recipe what would typically be a "safe" percentage to use so I don't trace so fast my stick blender requires dynamite to remove from the bowl, hahaha. I can always blend away for hours to reach trace, but if that soap sets, YIKES.

 

[gigisiguenza]

For kicks and giggles, will you post a screen shot of your recipe that has a 26.953% solution? You "should" be able to take 2(lye weight) of your 50% solution and add to (water weight - lye weight) to get your correct dilution. at least that's my understanding of the way it works. I can't imagine doing the dilution without the SoapCalc figures to tell me what to put in there.

Teresa sure I'll post it

 

[tbeck3579]

I found a cheat-sheet on this page: http://www.japudo.com.br/en/2013/05/14/the-importance-of-lye-concentration/

This chart appears to be very helpful and just what I need. Do you feel it is fairly accurate?

 

[gigisiguenza]

IrishLass - that pdf is a friggin godsend! I read it and a lightbulb went off as soon as I saw the formula and the example. I used my own recipe for my last batch as the numbers for the formula and hot diggity if it didn't make sense

So, if I correctly understood this lye solution method, then these are the pertinent facts I need to know ...

Fact 1 - the lye amount needed for the specific amount of combined oils used in specific recipe is static. It's based on the SAP values of the combined oils, therefore does not change, because it will always take the same amount of lye to saponify that specific amount of that combo of oils.

Fact 2 - Since the water's real purpose in the process is to act as a carrier for introducing the lye to the oils, the only truly necessary amount of water in a recipe is an amount equal to the amount of lye. Any water above that amount is used to slow down the speed at which the raw soap batter thickens. Reasons to slow down that speed include needing to accommodate the types of oils used and allow time to pour into molds (like lots of hard oils in a recipe) and other ingredients which may also accelerate trace, such as FOs EOs milks sugars etc. The more water used, the longer it takes to thicken up (useful for intricate pattern designs) and the longer it takes to evaporate (longer time to reach a hard bar state).

Fact 3 - DWCP will speed the time it takes for a batch to reach hard bar stage, but does not guarantee it will quickly be able to pass zap testing, and it doesn't negate the time needed for the bars to reach maturity, ensuring they are mild and usable. No shortcuts, you still need to cure for 4-6 weeks, depending on the type of recipe.

Fact 4 - Even though water can actually take more than it's own volume in lye, a 1:1 ratio is the strongest solution you should ever use.

Fact 5 - SMF rocks bada$$ socks cuz I never would have been able to figure this out with you guys

So... master batching your lye solution is really just creating a specific concentration solution ( example 50 %) that is able to be added as is, or it can be diluted further with more water.

The only question left still unanswered for me is -
If I have 50% solution master batch, and I want to use a 33% solution for a specific recipe, how do I adjust it?

Example: my last recipe's lye/water amounts were determined by soapcalc, set at default settings, and they turned out to be
32 oz of oils needed
12.16 oz of water
4.49 oz of lye
Resulting in a 26.953% concentration lye solution

Now if I had a master batch of 50% concentration solution and I wanted to use the 27% solution recommended by soap calc, how do I adjust the water?
Do I this?
12.16 - 4.49 = 7.67?

12.16 (amt of water needed for creating a 27% solution)
- 4.49 (1:1 lye solution amt)
_______
= 7.67 ( amt of additional water I need to add to my 50% master batch solution to make it a 27% solution.


If I got something wrong lemme know please

ETA my head almost exploded figuring all that out LOL. I work from 330pm to 330am on Monday and Tuesday, and it usually takes me a couple of hours to wind down to go to sleep, so I check blogs and forums. But my poor brain is kinda fried by end of my day so it took some major brain squeezing to wrap my head around this LOL.

 

[Saponomancer]

The 33% is actually easy to do, others not so much

you take half the weight of total lye solution added, and add that much water, so that you have a one part lye to two parts water

 

[gigisiguenza]

Ok so I put my last recipe through soapcalc again, this time using the Lye Concentration option instead of the default option.
I set the lye concentration at 50% and it told me I needed equal amounts of lye and water (obviously it said I need 4.49 oz lye and 4.49 oz of water)
So... if I were to use the 50% concentration solution, would I use 8.98 oz of the solution?

And, assuming that 8.98 oz of the MB 50% concentration solution is correct, would I add an additional 4.49 oz of water to that 8.98 oz if I wanted to convert the solution to a 33%? Or add an additional 8.98 oz to convert the MB to a 25% ?