My first shaving soap is a success!

[Rahstyle]

So I tweaked and experimented a bit tonight and switched things up

I used the following in a small 10oz batch with a 3% lye discount

50% Stearic Acid
24% Tallow
20% Coconut
6% Castor

70% KOH, 30% NaOH - dissolved in 2oz water - remainder of liquid was split between Aloe Gel from my plants in the yard and coconut milk

1.5 oz glycerin added after cook.
2% superfat after cook using 1/2 cocoa butter / 1/2 shea butter

Plopped it into the mold and let it cool and setup, as soon as I could cut it I snatched the rough end piece and checked the lather. It lathered a lot faster and easier than the test batch I did the other day with all tallow and no coconut, but definitely feels slicker and creamier than the coconut only I did the first time.

Not drying at all for being so fresh, I'm definitely feeling this new recipe

Don't mind the bad photos, I'm not a great photographer and my phone hates me tonight!

First photo - pre loaded the brush for about 10 seconds then used my hand to build the lather, looks very dense and is sooooo creamy

Second photo - the brush 20 minutes later, it's staying firm.

Ok so I have a couple questions about this.

1) Did you used a lye discount and added superfat? If so, we not just increase discount or superfat addition?

2) Is the superfact percentage is of the total weight?

3) If used 8oz SA, 3.84oz of BT, 3.2oz of CO72, .96oz of Castor. How do I figure out how much water and lye to use?

Thanks

 

[LBussy]

Ok so I have a couple questions about this.

No way you read all those pages already! :razz:

1) Did you used a lye discount and added superfat? If so, we not just increase discount or superfat addition?

The two are the same really, it's just a matter of how/when you do it. Even though calculators say "superfat" it really means it has figured it as a lye discount.

2) Is the superfact percentage is of the total weight?

It is generally figured as % of the total oil weight.

3) If used 8oz SA, 3.84oz of BT, 3.2oz of CO72, .96oz of Castor. How do I figure out how much water and lye to use?

Here, go play with the calculator and you will be able to do endless "what ifs":

http://soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp

Change the Lye to KOH and 90% at the very least, and the rest should be close enough.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

.......................The two are the same really, it's just a matter of how/when you do it. Even though calculators say "superfat" it really means it has figured it as a lye discount.
................

Not quite, as you say the difference is how/when which is a pretty big difference - if I make a 95gram batch of soap with a 0% lye discount and then add in 5 grams of oil after the cook, I have 5% of the oils unsaponified which is a 5% superfat BUT is that a 5% lye discount? Maybe not - if I calculate the lye used agains the lye needed to saponify the whole 100grams, it might well be a difference of more or less than 5% depending on the oil used as superfat.

In CP, the two are interchangeable. In HP, not always so.

No way you read all those pages already! :razz:

 

[Rahstyle]

Believe it or not, I read it all; there's only like 6-8 per page Days off are great, if I wasn't reading this I'd probably just be playing xbox

I tried the calc a few times last night and today, but I couldn't figure out what to adjust for #3

Thanks for the quick reply!

EDIT: HAHA I've tried the calc a dozen times since last night and couldn't figure out why after hitting calculate I couldn't see lye and water concentrations. Pffft, then i saw the VIEW button. DOH!

 

[LBussy]

The water and lye is calculated and displayed when you hit the "View or Print recipe" button.

Craig I guess you are right there. What I was meaning was that a superfat in the way it is calculated with calculators (like Soapcalc) is really applied as a lye discount. Whether that means 5% less lye or not is different as you say. I am definitely guilty of not supplying ALL of the information there.

The impact of "superfat" in CP is definitely not the same as HP ... but we don't want his head to explode yet, do we? :razz:

ETA: Thought about this as I sit here eating my lunch. A lye discount really does equal a superfat as far as ratios go. Not quite sure how I confused myself in the 4th sentence there. The application is where it's different and the devil is in the details. So: A 5% superfat leaves a 5% surplus of oil in the finished soap = A 5% lye discount equals a 5% surplus of oil in the finished soap. Provided one is doing CP and/or adding all the oils at the start, there's no difference.

I think ... until I change my mind again.

 

[DeeAnna]

"... A 5% superfat leaves a 5% surplus of oil in the finished soap = A 5% lye discount equals a 5% surplus of oil in the finished soap. Provided one is doing CP and/or adding all the oils at the start, there's no difference...."

Yes, that's correct. An addition of 5% extra fat by weight may not be a 5% lye discount in this one circumstance -- when you add that fat by weight to an HP soap after the cook AND the saponification value of the added fat is different than the average saponification value of the fats used to make the soap. In that case, the 5% added superfat may not represent a 5% lye discount -- it might be 4% or 6% or whatever.

As far as the commercial soap making industry is concerned, any fat remaining in the soap after saponification ... regardless of the mathematical gyrations you do to figure the amount ... is called superfat and the soap is called a superfatted soap.

Just sayin'..... :shifty:

 

[Rahstyle]

"... A 5% superfat leaves a 5% surplus of oil in the finished soap = A 5% lye discount equals a 5% surplus of oil in the finished soap. Provided one is doing CP and/or adding all the oils at the start, there's no difference...."

Yes, that's correct. An addition of 5% extra fat by weight may not be a 5% lye discount in this one circumstance -- when you add that fat by weight to an HP soap after the cook AND the saponification value of the added fat is different than the average saponification value of the fats used to make the soap. In that case, the 5% added superfat may not represent a 5% lye discount -- it might be 4% or 6% or whatever.

As far as the commercial soap making industry is concerned, any fat remaining in the soap after saponification ... regardless of the mathematical gyrations you do to figure the amount ... is called superfat and the soap is called a superfatted soap.

Just sayin'..... :shifty:

So adding in fat at the end vs a an actual lye discount won't mathematically equal out all the time...correct?

Would there ever be a reason to do both?

 

[LBussy]

So adding in fat at the end vs a an actual lye discount won't mathematically equal out all the time...correct?

Would there ever be a reason to do both?

You're in a strange land here.

So what I do is add the superfatted amount after HP cooking. So the recipe calls for the total of oils at 5% superfat. I reserve an amount equal to that 5% for addition with the fragrance after cook.

No there's no reason to do both because they are the same ... or in a way you are doing both ... gah! Head explodes. :razz:

Hopefully that makes sense.

Now you will ask the next obvious question ... I'll wait till it strikes you but I am pretty sure what it is.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

DeeAnna, myself and another user went round in circles for a while on this. We didn't really see eye to eye, but we all love each other regardless.

Suffice to say, I refer it in CP as either a superfat or a lye discount. In HP, if I have added something odd in at the end I only ever say superfat, never lye discount.

 

[LBussy]

The argument reminds me of the "sharp" vs "keen" arguments on B&B about razors.

When you get to that level, the good news is you understand it. We just need the context when we discuss it.

 

[Rahstyle]

You're in a strange land here.

So what I do is add the superfatted amount after HP cooking. So the recipe calls for the total of oils at 5% superfat. I reserve an amount equal to that 5% for addition with the fragrance after cook.

No there's no reason to do both because they are the same ... or in a way you are doing both ... gah! Head explodes. :razz:

Hopefully that makes sense.

Now you will ask the next obvious question ... I'll wait till it strikes you but I am pretty sure what it is.

Ok so lets say I 50/50 SA and CO and reserve 5% CO til the end. Do you ever toss that 5% and sub in another fat like shea butter or something instead?

 

[LBussy]

Yes sir ... and if you can wait a few days I'll send you the whole story. If you can't wait - something like what dosco posted is a lot better. Sub out some shea, lanolin, coco butter, whatever and use that for superfat.

If you want to start NOW and learn to appreciate what small changes do, follow Songwind's advice to go 52% stearic and 48% coconut oil. Figure the recipe for 5% superfat and use only KOH. For your first try just make it easy on yourself and cook the whole thing all at once. Since you are not using any particularly spectacular moisturizing oils and the stearic will undoubtedly saponify in the first three seconds anyway, you get the same effect for less investment of effort.

Add about 3 Tbsp/lb of glycerin before, after, in the lye water, doesn't matter. That will be as good or better than any veg shaving soap you have tried and you will have learned a lot by making it.

ETA: Attached is a 100g scaled version of this recipe that will give you an idea - and also may help figure out SoapCalc. I made this in a small screw-top food storage container floated in a saucepan of simmering water. The container doubled as the container for use - perfect size.

View attachment MdeC Clone.pdf

 

[Rahstyle]

Yes sir ... and if you can wait a few days I'll send you the whole story. If you can't wait - something like what dosco posted is a lot better. Sub out some shea, lanolin, coco butter, whatever and use that for superfat.

If you want to start NOW and learn to appreciate what small changes do, follow Songwind's advice to go 52% stearic and 48% coconut oil. Figure the recipe for 5% superfat and use only KOH. For your first try just make it easy on yourself and cook the whole thing all at once. Since you are not using any particularly spectacular moisturizing oils and the stearic will undoubtedly saponify in the first three seconds anyway, you get the same effect for less investment of effort.

Add about 3 Tbsp/lb of glycerin before, after, in the lye water, doesn't matter. That will be as good or better than any veg shaving soap you have tried and you will have learned a lot by making it.

ETA: Attached is a 100g scaled version of this recipe that will give you an idea - and also may help figure out SoapCalc. I made this in a small screw-top food storage container floated in a saucepan of simmering water. The container doubled as the container for use - perfect size.

I'll definitely wait as I haven't ordered my KOH, SA, and glycerin yet from Voyageur

 

[LBussy]

I'll definitely as I haven't ordered my KOH, SA, and glycerin yet from Voyageur

Oh you're in Canada? Yeah you are in the right place. More than a few here seem to be from "up nort" and can help you find your supplies as well.

 

[Rahstyle]

Oh you're in Canada? Yeah you are in the right place. More than a few here seem to be from "up nort" and can help you find your supplies as well.

Luckily my wife has a massive young living oil collection and makes lip balms, scrubs, bath bombs, and soap for fun. She's got a whack of stuff I can snag from that and her new directions supply. Other than that I found the caustics at voyageur and sapphire blue. just perusing the catalog as we speak

 

[DeeAnna]

"...So adding in fat at the end vs a an actual lye discount won't mathematically equal out all the time...correct? Would there ever be a reason to do both? ..."

Yes. Aaaaannnd no.

"...Suffice to say, I refer it in CP as either a superfat or a lye discount. In HP, if I have added something odd in at the end I only ever say superfat, never lye discount. ..."

Yes, I get that. I understand the distinction between excess fat added with a lye discount method versus excess fat added with a superfat method, and I make that distinction too. But my point is this -- after the fact, my bar of soap has excess fat. HOW the fat got there is moot to the consumer -- agreed, this is not moot to you and me, but it certainly is to the consumer.

The excess fat in that soap has to be called by a name that's intelligible to consumers, whether the soap is sold, used by the family, or given away. To call the excess fat in a finished soap as a "lye discount" makes no sense even if the method by which it was added is the lye discount method. Industry calls it "superfat" regardless of how it got there -- "super" in the sense of "above" or "in excess" and "fat" ... well cuz it's fat.

That's the only point I was trying to make.

 

[LBussy]

Yeah but what's better, Ford or Chevy?

 

[dosco]

Yeah but what's better, Ford or Chevy?

Haha.

So, tell me, do you think torque wins races or horsepower?

(snicker)

-Dave

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Harrison Ford or Chevy Chase? Well, both have their moments as actors.........................

 

[LBussy]

Depends on the race! We talking hill climbing, drag racing, dirt track, or circle track!

Of course which of those are the best is easy, drag racing!

Um ... soap.