more shampoo bar questions

[CanaDawn]

I use the tiniest amount of CA, plus my hair loss happens when I am scrubbing my hair and rinsing the shampoo off of my head so the Citric isn't the culprit.

hmm...the obvious question...are you scrubbing too hard?

Soap's not the answer for everyone, maybe it won't be ok for you. Have you tried a few types of soap?

 

[MagicalMysterySoap]

hmm...the obvious question...are you scrubbing too hard?

Soap's not the answer for everyone, maybe it won't be ok for you. Have you tried a few types of soap?

I haven't paid attention to how I scrub, but next time, I'll be more aware and be gentler if I am rough. I feel like more falls off due to the alkaline nature of the soap which causes i
my hair gets matted more easily. No, this is only one recipe, I will try to experiment more. The one that I am using is 19% castor, 19% Co, and 62% olive. Maybe my hair needs to adjust? I will give it more time and see how it turns out. Thank you for trying to help me out

 

[CanaDawn]

hm. I don't know too much about formulation, but it might be the castor oil at that high percentage? I hope someone more expert on the topic will chime in.

Is it breaking from being matted from the soap and scrubbed or falling out at the root? Was it healthy hair to start with? Coloured/processed?

 

[MagicalMysterySoap]

hm. I don't know too much about formulation, but it might be the castor oil at that high percentage? I hope someone more expert on the topic will chime in.

Is it breaking from being matted from the soap and scrubbed or falling out at the root? Was it healthy hair to start with? Coloured/processed?

I will formulate another recipe with a lower castor percentage but from what I read, high castor is favored in shampoo bars.
My hair isn't breaking, it's falling from the root. Yes my hair is really healthy and I don't color it. My original shampoo is a trader joe's one and I never got as much fall out as I am getting with the shampoo bar.

 

[CanaDawn]

Sorry, I don't have other ideas. I hope someone else chimes in.

 

[Obsidian]

19% coconut oil is really high for a shampoo bar. You want a low cleansing bar so the natural oils aren't stripped away. I use a modified version of genny's recipe. If you don't want to use the neem, replace it with OO or avocado. SF 3%.

If you hair is really matted, try a stronger vinegar rinse. I normally use 1/4 tsp per cup of water but I've used up to 2 TB per cup of water. Too much castor can make your hair sticky so that could be part of the problem.

OO 40%
Castor 10%
Avocado 30%
Shea 10%
Coconut 5%
Neem 5%

 

[CanaDawn]

again...it all depends.
I used another bar much lower in CO than usual, and this morning went back to a bar that is 80% CO and my hair is better than it's been in a few weeks.

For me, personally, with fine hair, all that low cleansing and high conditioning just leaves me an unhappy greaseball, where a SF CO bar (with a little castor and olive) and a vinegar rinse leave me with clean, shiny hair that can actually move. If a standard bar isn't working as advertised, there's nothing at all wrong with trying different things.

I agree though, if it's matting because of the soap, try either a stronger citric acid rinse, a vinegar rinse, or a different acid (lemon juice, different type of vinegar) - I can't comb mine if the acid rinse isn't done, and citric acid was weird on my hair.

Do you have a list of the Trader Joe bar ingredients? Was it soap or syndet?

 

[MagicalMysterySoap]

19% coconut oil is really high for a shampoo bar. You want a low cleansing bar so the natural oils aren't stripped away. I use a modified version of genny's recipe. If you don't want to use the neem, replace it with OO or avocado. SF 3%.

If you hair is really matted, try a stronger vinegar rinse. I normally use 1/4 tsp per cup of water but I've used up to 2 TB per cup of water. Too much castor can make your hair sticky so that could be part of the problem.

OO 40%
Castor 10%
Avocado 30%
Shea 10%
Coconut 5%
Neem 5%

Thank you. I will formulate a low cleansing one also and see how that works.

again...it all depends.
I used another bar much lower in CO than usual, and this morning went back to a bar that is 80% CO and my hair is better than it's been in a few weeks.

For me, personally, with fine hair, all that low cleansing and high conditioning just leaves me an unhappy greaseball, where a SF CO bar (with a little castor and olive) and a vinegar rinse leave me with clean, shiny hair that can actually move. If a standard bar isn't working as advertised, there's nothing at all wrong with trying different things.

I agree though, if it's matting because of the soap, try either a stronger citric acid rinse, a vinegar rinse, or a different acid (lemon juice, different type of vinegar) - I can't comb mine if the acid rinse isn't done, and citric acid was weird on my hair.

Do you have a list of the Trader Joe bar ingredients? Was it soap or syndet?

I'll also consider one with 80% coconut oil and see how that works. Do you know the percentage of sf for that one? I'll keep messing with the amount of Citric and see if it helps. I washed my hair today and the hair fall out was less than before so maybe my hair needed to adjust.

Oh the TJ shampoo is not actual soap, it's liquid normal shampoo that's sulfate free.

 

[Bex1982]

So the shampoo bar I made last week totally sucks. I didn’t try it on my hair because it's not cured yet but I checked the lather by washing my hands.
For one, the essential oils and lemon fragrance really clash IMO it's a bit gross smelling.
For two, the lather is not dense at all and the was the problem with the first bar I tried, it hardly lathered and my hair stayed oily.
Like I said, it's still curing so I can't say for sure.

Avocado 20%
Castor 15%
CO 20%
OO 15%
PO 18.5%
Shea 11%
Stearic .5%

Mint, lavender and patchouli e-oil. Lemon FO.

 

[CanaDawn]

I'll also consider one with 80% coconut oil and see how that works. Do you know the percentage of sf for that one? I'll keep messing with the amount of Citric and see if it helps. I washed my hair today and the hair fall out was less than before so maybe my hair needed to adjust.

Oh the TJ shampoo is not actual soap, it's liquid normal shampoo that's sulfate free.

I'm not saying you should go that high with CO, and I hesitate to because the general wisdom is that that is far too high My hair gets greasy feeling if I use a more conditioning bar, but I suspect that high a CO is not "normal". My point really was that whatever is the "norm" will only work for the majority of users, and if it isn't working, it's ok to experiment with other formulas or try different things.

How is your hair once it's dry, when you wash with soap?

The other thing I was thinking about this afternoon: Soap will act differently to shampoo, and your scalp oil/sebum is maybe being removed differently, and "releasing" hair that is not actively growing. I'm just guessing though, and you'll know best what sort of thing is going on. If it's getting less, it could just be an adjustment period.

 

[CanaDawn]

So the shampoo bar I made last week totally sucks.

Aw, that's too bad. Give it a longer cure (isn't that the solution to most soap problems? ) and see what it's like...maybe the smell will settle down too.

 

[Bex1982]

Yeah, I'll try again when it's cured. I have about 9 bars thinking I would have a nice stash for myself and some for friends. It's nice and conditioning on my hands, I just don't think it's cleansing enough for my type of hair.
If it doesn't work for me after the cure, I'll just give them away as "herbal hand soap" since I really don't need more soap and pretty much use only 3 types of my soaps on a regular basis, the rest are things other people like.

 

[MagicalMysterySoap]

I'm not saying you should go that high with CO, and I hesitate to because the general wisdom is that that is far too high My hair gets greasy feeling if I use a more conditioning bar, but I suspect that high a CO is not "normal". My point really was that whatever is the "norm" will only work for the majority of users, and if it isn't working, it's ok to experiment with other formulas or try different things.

How is your hair once it's dry, when you wash with soap?

The other thing I was thinking about this afternoon: Soap will act differently to shampoo, and your scalp oil/sebum is maybe being removed differently, and "releasing" hair that is not actively growing. I'm just guessing though, and you'll know best what sort of thing is going on. If it's getting less, it could just be an adjustment period.

Well I am willing to try different recipes because I really want to stop buying shampoo and just make my own. I have oily hair too and I hope the low cleansing high conditioning will work with my hair but if not I am willing to try a high coconut oil one.

My hair has been fine the last few washes but today it is looking kinda dull and not feeling so soft. I brushed my dry hair just now and there is like whitish soap scum looking stuff on my brush, gross. I hate having really hard water.

 

[CanaDawn]

I have more residue on my brushes with soap too, but my hair seems fine/better/stronger, so I'm assuming shampoo just stripped off all that natural oil. I also was trying a different bar that is lower cleansing (I don't like that bar on my face or hair, but it's fine on my body and for shaving), and had an increase in residue while using that bar.

Another thing I am noticing is that my hair dries much faster now. I think it is less porous than before, but that's just a guess.

Another thought....maybe you need to treat the water first with citric acid to precipitate out the minerals ("hardness") and then wash using treated water. Just throwing out ideas, feel free to chuck out anything that won't work for you.

The other place for hair advice, including using shampoo/soap bars is a forum called Long Hair Community but I just tried searching and need to register before that is an option (I think that might have changed). I used to read there, and learned a great deal.

 

[MagicalMysterySoap]

I have more residue on my brushes with soap too, but my hair seems fine/better/stronger, so I'm assuming shampoo just stripped off all that natural oil. I also was trying a different bar that is lower cleansing (I don't like that bar on my face or hair, but it's fine on my body and for shaving), and had an increase in residue while using that bar.

Another thing I am noticing is that my hair dries much faster now. I think it is less porous than before, but that's just a guess.

Another thought....maybe you need to treat the water first with citric acid to precipitate out the minerals ("hardness") and then wash using treated water. Just throwing out ideas, feel free to chuck out anything that won't work for you.

The other place for hair advice, including using shampoo/soap bars is a forum called Long Hair Community but I just tried searching and need to register before that is an option (I think that might have changed). I used to read there, and learned a great deal.

Thank you so much for helping me out, I honestly appreciate it. I use to search a lot on LHC too so I will give it a try on the shampoo bar. I feel like this is a trial and error sort of thing so I will keep experimenting with different soap recipes and amount of CA, etc. I think I am going to purchase a shower head filter to see if it makes a difference.

 

[Obsidian]

I think its important to have a low SF when using a low cleansing bar. My first bar had 6% SF and after a few washes, it left a build up. Lowering it to 3% has fixed that issue.

 

[CanaDawn]

I think its important to have a low SF when using a low cleansing bar. My first bar had 6% SF and after a few washes, it left a build up. Lowering it to 3% has fixed that issue.

Yeah, that's my next experiment. I like what the other oils did for my bars of soap, but not for my hair, and it's the SF/conditioning level that bothers me. Going to make a very low SF version and see if it's good.

Another thought: silicone buildup from product use?

And are you a) cleaning to the scalp and b) rinsing completely with your acid rinse? I started using a nozzle bottle similar to the one below to be able to use less rinse and do a better job of getting it thru all the hair instead of just washing down the surface with a wider mouth container (use a lot less rinse, and it's not as cold as a drench):

 

[KristaY]

Are my eyes bleeding? I think they're bleeding.... I've done SOOO MUCH reading on shampoo bars over the last several days, my head is filled to the brim and spilling over, lol. roblem: After reading through this thread (thanks Bex!), Genny's thread (all 63 pages), plus may other sites, I think I'm ready to create one. I have fine hair but normal amount. It's color treated (yep, there's gray under there, shhh) but healthy. I usually shampoo every 2nd day and can go every 3rd day in winter, so not oily. I'd like my DH to use this bar too, he has normal "man" hair (very short, not oily or dry, etc.) So based on Genny's original recipe I subbed the 10% soybean with 5% each CO and sunflower (sunflower because of it's non-comedogenic properties). I'll probably need to experiment a while to find out what works best for me, DH, our water quality, etc. but here's a start. What are your thoughts?

40% OO
30% Avocado
10% Castor
10% Shea
5% CO
5% Sunflower

3% SF
35% H2O to oils

Soap Calc puts this at 3 for cleansing and 74 conditioning.

 

[MagicalMysterySoap]

I think its important to have a low SF when using a low cleansing bar. My first bar had 6% SF and after a few washes, it left a build up. Lowering it to 3% has fixed that issue.

The shampoo bar I am using is 3% sf.

 

[MagicalMysterySoap]

Yeah, that's my next experiment. I like what the other oils did for my bars of soap, but not for my hair, and it's the SF/conditioning level that bothers me. Going to make a very low SF version and see if it's good.

Another thought: silicone buildup from product use?

And are you a) cleaning to the scalp and b) rinsing completely with your acid rinse? I started using a nozzle bottle similar to the one below to be able to use less rinse and do a better job of getting it thru all the hair instead of just washing down the surface with a wider mouth container (use a lot less rinse, and it's not as cold as a drench):

I don't use silicone products. I honestly don't use any products on my hair except coconut oil occasionally when my ends might feel slightly dry. I try to make sure to get the rinse all over my hair even lifting and parting areas on my hair to get in between. But I will look into one of those bottles and see if it makes a difference.