Modifying a shaving soap recipe

[DeeAnna]

You mention glide and stable lather, but I'd suggest a third test of the "cushion". It is not enough to make a long lasting, slick lather. The suds also need to have enough body to protect the skin from abrasion by the razor.

While conditioning is important, from what I have gathered from reading the straight razor forums and the shaving soap threads on SMF is that it is not quite as high on the "must have" list as stability, glide, and cushion. Songwind's recipe breaks a lot of "normal" soaping rules by having low conditioning and high cleansing, but it is an awfully good shave soap because it offers stable, slick, and cushiony lather.

Another key quality that Songwind's soap has is that it develops the lather quickly, which is a plus for many shavers. (Although I think some like the challenge offered by soaps that are slower to lather).

 

[eucalypta]

You mention glide and stable lather, but I'd suggest a third test of the "cushion". It is not enough to make a long lasting, slick lather. The suds also need to have enough body to protect the skin from abrasion by the razor.

The dense, stable, creamy lather is just that "cushion" you're talking about


While conditioning is important, from what I have gathered from reading the straight razor forums and the shaving soap threads on SMF is that it is not quite as high on the "must have" list as stability, glide, and cushion.

I tend to agree with that, but it is not too difficult to create all those factors in one go.

Songwind's recipe breaks a lot of "normal" soaping rules by having low conditioning and high cleansing, but it is an awfully good shave soap because it offers stable, slick, and cushiony lather.

I think Songwinds' recipe complies to most soaping rules; lots of coconut usually will provide a fast, but fluffy and non lasting lather (like a bubblebath). Adding Stearic acid takes care of the cushiony lather.

Another key quality that Songwind's soap has is that it develops the lather quickly, which is a plus for many shavers. (Although I think some like the challenge offered by soaps that are slower to lather).

Coconut lathers easily, that's true. Using KOH as well as NaOH provides esier lathering too.

To each its own I know some razor forum's members; and follow the discussions. Even did a swap.
I think everyone tries to tweak his recipe until he's perfectly happy with it.
Never said that Songwinds' soap was no good. It's all about preferences.

There is some harsh soap brand on the market and it has been very popular for ages, but if I wash my hands with it, I have to make a run to the container with hand cream.
I guess if you use an after shave balm, the high cleansing properties wouldn't be so important.

Anyway, I tried to help, but I don't expect everyone to appreciate it.

 

[DeeAnna]

Well, ~I~ personally appreciated it, or I would not have bothered to contribute my own thoughts. I realize it took some time for you to write it and share your point of view. I regret that you feel I was discounting your effort; that was not my intent.

 

[Lindy]

Something else you need to be aware of. Shave soap is not big bubbles and you want to avoid that. Coconut oil should not be your main oil as it creates airy bubbles and that is a big no no with wet shavers. They truly are looking for a dense lather rather than big lather (read that as bubbly). I would recommend as your main oil tallow, palm or lard as they create that thick, rich lather that you are looking for. Stearic acid also helps create the dense lather you are looking for.

When you achieve that yogurt style lather you are going to have your cushion which is what allows the razor to glide yet protect the skin at the same time. I do add clay to mine to make it slick.

HTH

 

[Stacie]

I made the soap being raved about in the link Efficacious Gentleman posted above. It breaks all the 'rules' about shaving soap, it's pretty easy to make, has great lather and slip. Seriously...even if you have another shave soap you like or want try other kinds, you should make this one at least once. I'm sold.

 

[wetshavingproducts]

Just throwing this out there, but a lot of large commercial shaving soaps are CO & SA based.

The 'Songwind' soap is not breaking any rules, but rather is following them to a T.

 

[IrishLass]

Irish Lass - I would truly like to hear your DH's opinions, if and when.

I'll keep you posted!

You (Irish Lass) wrote in one of your posts that you had been pretty satisfied with a recipe that scored 28 bubbly and 52 creamy -- it didn't need a huge amount of water to lather up, but protected your hubby's skin well. My recollection of your explanation was when your recipe was higher in the creamy score, it was harder to lather without extra work and time.

Yes- correct. My first ever shaving formula contained only 4% of a bubbly oil, namely coconut- and it was 27 on the bubbly and 57 on the creamy. Here's my combined fatty acid profile for that particular formula:

Lauric: 3
Linoleic: 4
Linolenic: 0
Myristic: 3
Oleic: 31
Palmitic: 15
Stearic: 20
Ricinoleic: 22

and the "quality" numbers:

Harness: 41
Cleansing: 6
Conditioning: 57
Bubbly: 27
Creamy: 57
Iodine: 56
INS: 132

Hubby loved it because 1) it had great glide and cushion /didn't give him any nicks or cuts, and 2) it didn't dry his face out or make it feel tight after shaving.

Although he didn't give me any complaints about it, I decided to see if I could improve upon it based on the feedback I was recieving from a very kind and gracious shaving afficianado who had contacted me privately through the forum. He (the gracious afficiando) had been doing a web-search on shaving soaps made with tallow and had come across some of my posts regarding shaving soap here on the forum. Anyway, to make a long story short, he agreed to be a tester for my shave soap, and through his very honest and detailed feedback (I told him to hold nothing back), I decided to increase my bubbly oils, hopefully without undermining any of the glide/cushion/protection, all of which he agreed with my hubby were superb and should never be changed.

I must say that it was really wonderful to recieve such intricately detailed feedback from a shaving afficianado. Although my sweet hubby shaves every day, he's more of a 'shave to live' kinda guy rather than one who 'lives to shave', if you know what I mean. His shaving philosophy is such that if the soap eventually lathers within about 2 minutes of applying friction and doesn't cause nicks and cuts or dry his skin out, it's all good and everything else is gravy. It doesn't take much to please him. lol

In the end, my formula went from containing 4% bubbly oils to 10% bubbly oils, with minor tweaks here and there to my other fats, as well as an increase in my superfat level to compensate. When all was said and done, my shaving afficianado/tester gave my new, improved formula a score of 10+ in every catagory across the board, with the only criticism being that he felt I could still go even a little bit higher on the ease of lather factor- but only if it didn't mess with any of the soap's other qualities, which he thought were so outstanding that his "first day sharp blade jitters" were greatly reduced if it was my soap with which he was using to break in the new blade. He told me if I ever decided to sell, and if I marketed my shave soap at a competitive price, he wouldn't hesitate to buy my soap, even 'as is' (i.e., without any further tweaking done to it) and would openly endorse it. Needless to say, such high praise from someone so serious about his shaving toilette had me floating on huge, fluffy clouds of joy! Hubby's feedback, although just as honest, wasn't quite as detailed to put it mildly, but he did tell me that it lathered easier.... and that the improvement was still just gravy, or icing on the cake to him. lol

Anyway, all of the above happened about 3 years ago, and I never did tweak my formula any further than what I did since I had no desire to sell or market my soap then (and still don't at present), and also because hubby was/is quite happy with it, but reading Songwind's thread the other day has lit a fire under the experimentor in me, and I just want to see if the ease-of-lather factor improves at all by subbing in a little KOH for the NaOH (hopefully without messing up the other qualities that my hubby loves). I'll let you know how it goes.

Oh- here are the soap qualities for the improved formula with the 10% bubbly oils: First here is my fatty acid profile:

Lauric: 6
Linoleic: 4
Linolenic: 0
Myristic: 4
Oleic: 29
Palmitic: 16
Stearic: 21
Ricinoleic: 18

and the 'quality' numbers:

Hardness: 46
Cleansing: 10
Conditioning: 51
Bubbly: 28
Creamy: 54
Iodine: 52
INS: 143

As you can see- the cleansing went up and the conditioning went down in comparison to my previous formula, hence my decision to increase the superfat to 8% on this one (up from the 5% S/F on the previous formula).

On a related topic, I am not sure I am interpreting a point correctly about stearic acid in shave soaps....
Lindy has written that one needs at least 40% stearic acid content for a good shave soap. I don't doubt her advice works for her. You have written that you have a good recipe for shave soap that is about 20% stearic acid or thereabouts. I don't doubt your advice is working for you. You two have gently agreed to disagree on the matter, but I'm still puzzling on this and it seems like such an important point to be clear about....

If I look at the analysis of commercially-sold stearic acid, I see the product is not actually 100% stearic acid as one would think. It actually is more like about 50% stearic and 50% palmitic. So if I wanted to prepare a shave soap that is truly 40% stearic acid, as pure stearic acid, the recipe would have to be almost all commercial stearic to get the actual stearic analysis up to 40%. Trying to meet a 40% actual stearic content disqualifies all of the fats traditionally used in shave soaps, including tallow (23% stearic). Even Songwind's recipe, which calls for a whopping 52% commercial stearic, has only 29% actual stearic acid, and it gets decent reviews by the straight-razor crowd.

Now that I realize how much commercial stearic would be required to make a soap with 40% actual stearic, I wonder if the difference between you and Lindy is more one of interpretation. Could it be that Lindy talking about the amount of commercial "stearic", and you are talking about the amount of actual stearic? You are both thoughtful, competent soapers, and it is unusual there is such an apparent divergence of opinion on this point.

Ahhh.....I had no idea that commercial stearic was actually a mix of 50% stearic and 50% palmitic. I don't use any stand-alone, commercial stearic acid in my shave soap at all, so that may indeed be the reason why Lindy and I have such a divergence in opinion, or at least part of the reason why. Thank you for pointing that out.

The entire 21% stearic content in my formula is purely derived from just the fats and oils that that I use. For what it's worth, I use tallow, kokum butter, illipe butter, hydrogenated PKO flakes, coconut oil, castor oil, olive oil, avocado oil, and rice bran oil (not necesarilly in that order, of course). I also use 10% vegetable glycerin ppo, as well as coconut milk, kaolin clay, and sodium lactate.

The other part of the reason for our divergence of opinion, I strongly suspect, could very likely stem from the differing feedback that we each have recieved from those who have used, or continue to use our soap. Granted, I'm quite sure a whole lot more men have used Lindy's soap in comparison to the scant few that have used mine (seeing as how she sells and I don't), but that does not necesarilly make the feedback that either one of us has recieved any more or less valid, important, or useful than each other's. Instead (to me), it's just another living example of how everyone's skin is different and that one size doesn't necesarilly fit all. A lot depends on individual preferences.

I'm not sure what type of shave soap Lindy makes, but for what it's worth, I make the hard puck-type via the CP method (as opposed to HP), and if there's anyone out there wondering if 20% - 21% total stearic is enough for a hard, puck-type shave soap made via CP- one that lathers up with shaving can-type lather- I want to tell you to be encouraged, because I'm living proof that it is, and I know of others who can say the same thing (some of whom even sell). The best advice I can give anyone is to get some testers who'll give you honest feedback, then just keep experimenting and adjusting things according to the feedback they give you. Oh- and have fun and don't give up!

IrishLass

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Just a note for any one thinking of adding clay to a shaving soap as a matter of course - don't just automatically do it! It might not be needed but will put some shavers off if it is in there. If you have to add it, then you have to - shame, but there we are. If you can make a good shaving soap with out it, you're better off with out it.

 

[shunt2011]

I have been making a tweaked version of Songwinds recipe and it's just amazing. I get nothing but raves on it. It's a thick creamy lather and even withouth clay it's got fantastic slip and doesn't dry the skin out at all. I ditched my other shaving soaps. I put them in a low profile jar and they sell really well. They are even beign carried in a shave shop that is local to me. Give it a try and tweak it to your liking.

 

[DeeAnna]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Irish Lass. I will digest your post more carefully today -- lots of food for thought.

"...The other part of the reason for our divergence of opinion, I strongly suspect, could very likely stem from the differing feedback that we each have received from those who have used, or continue to use our soap...."

Yep, that is so very true, and it reinforces the fact that there are many right answers to the challenge of creating a good -- hopefully superlative! -- shave soap. Lindy has created successful products in this arena, and I value her point of view. Since she's chimed in on this thread, I'm hoping she is continuing to read it and offer a response to my question.

A clarification: According to the fatty acid breakdown for stearic acid that I have in my soap calc, commercial stearic acid is about 53% stearic, with the balance (47%) being palmitic. Materials derived from natural ag products usually vary from batch to batch, so I'm pretty sure these numbers are an average and not written in stone. I just remember it as about a 50:50 ratio.

 

[Lindy]

In all fairness Deanna I don't know the answer to that. I'm glad others have developed recipes that work for them.

Irish Lass I agree, feedback is always valid and I respect that you have found a recipe that works for you.

For me this is the recipe that I have gotten the strongest feedback on from the men's forums as well as one that is now being private labeled for 2 companies out of the US and 1 in Canada. That does not diminish the success other's have had though and please don't take it that way.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I think that there are indeed many correct answers to the question "what is a good recipe for a shaving soap?" - how the end is achieved is neither here nor there, especially to the end user who wouldn't think of steric or palmic or conditioning or bubbly or cleansing. Just simply "how does it work on my face?" and secondary is "how does it smell?".

That said, in the case of Arko, the second question takes precedence over the first for many

I'm looking forward to giving some of these recipes a try and find out what works best for me.........................