Made shampoo... turned out well, but would like to thicken it

[riffwraith]

Thanks.

The shampoo gets it's viscosity from the correct balance of Water to Soap made from the oils & lye.

Ok, that would explain why the viscosity isnt always the same. Small co. making small batches at a time.

So, I assume that the lye is used here as well... extract the fats and fatty oils and acids from the oils listed?

Yes, I like the ingredients too. But I think the problem here is that the shampoo is extremely alkaline, as I mentioned earlier. 9.0 on a ph test strip. I am going to try adding some aloe vera gel and some fresh lemon to see if that helps.

Cheers.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Lowering the pH is not recommended in the case of lye-based, aka, alkaline shampoo. Those who've tried to do that find that the emulsion breaks. Syndets are better for those who want a pH neutral shampoo.

 

[atiz]

Thanks.

So, learn me something else, please.

The aforementioned shampoo I currently use has a decent viscosity to it - unlike the black soap/soapy water I made (post #1)

These are the ingredients:
Aqua, Potassium Cocoate (Coconut Oil), Potassium Olivate (Olive Oil), Potassium Castorate (Castor Oil), Potassium Almondate (Almond Oil), Potassium Wheat Germate (Wheat Germ Oil), Vegetable Glycerine, Sodium Borate, Melaleuca Alternfolia Oil (Tea Tree), Lavendula Angustifolia Oil (Lavender), Rosemarinus Officinalis Oil (Rosemary), Citrus Limonum Oil (Lemon), Cymbopogon Flexuosus Oil (Lemongrass), Urtica Dioica Leaf (Nettle),althaea Officinalis Root (Marshmallow), Rosemarinus Officinalis Leaf (Rosemary), Lavendula Angustifolia Leaf (Lavender), Geraniol, Limonene, Linalool, Citral, Eugenol, Citronellol (Within The Essential Oils).

Is there any one specific thing that gives it the viscosity that it has? I am thinking it's one of the first five, or some combination.

Thanks again!

This is not technically shampoo but liquid soap, made with KOH. That explains the viscosity -- you will never get that by dissolving solid soap.
I'm one of those who would not use (at least long-term) soap on my hair; but if it works for you, then that's good.

 

[riffwraith]

Oh look - I am learning stuff here!

So, aren't most commercially avail shampoos lye-based?

 

[shunt2011]

Oh look - I am learning stuff here!

So, aren't most commercially avail shampoos lye-based?

No, they are syndets. Read the ingredients on the labels. The ph of soap is too high for many peoples hair and can/will ruin it.

 

[riffwraith]

The ph of soap is too high for many peoples hair and can/will ruin it.

I take it you mean on the alkaline side?

So, sodium lauryl sulfate, sodium laureth sulfate, cocamidopropyl betaine, et al, don't come from the saponification process? (I know someone out there is rolling their eyes, saying, what - he doesn't know that?!?!? lol)

Ok, I am getting a clearer picture here. Me thinks.

 

[katp9906]

I know this is 2 years too late but I’ve been making liquid Castile soap for quite a few years and if you add salt water, not sure of the exact quantity off hand…. A little at a time, that thickens it

 

[DeeAnna]

The OP was diluting solid soap with what sounded like quite a bit of water. They weren't making a KOH based liquid soap.

Salt isn't always a good thickener. The black soap the OP was using may not have been a high oleic soap like a 100% olive oil soap is (what I assume you mean by "castile" soap). Salt works well to thicken soap that is moderately high in oleic acid, but doesn't work nearly as well (or at all) in soap that's lower in oleic acid.

Also the ability of salt to thicken soap is most effective when the percentage of soap is reasonably high, which I'm not sure about, based on the way the OP made this mixture.

The OP hasn't been back since 2020 so I don't think your advice will be helpful to them.

 

[katp9906]

The OP was diluting solid soap with what sounded like quite a bit of water. They weren't making a KOH based liquid soap.

Salt isn't always a good thickener. The black soap the OP was using may not have been a high oleic soap like a 100% olive oil soap is (what I assume you mean by "castile" soap). Salt works well to thicken soap that is moderately high in oleic acid, but doesn't work nearly as well (or at all) in soap that's lower in oleic acid.

Also the ability of salt to thicken soap is most effective when the percentage of soap is reasonably high, which I'm not sure about, based on the way the OP made this mixture.

The OP hasn't been back since 2020 so I don't think your advice will be helpful to them.

I totally misread that post I thought they said they used Castile soap. Which isn’t great for shampoo to begin with. Sad they left and didn’t come back. I just found you

 

[DeeAnna]

You need to define what you mean by "castile" if you want to use the word, because it has different meanings to various people.

The historical meaning of castile is the meaning many soap makers prefer -- a 100% olive oil soap.

To most consumers and to many other soap makers, it means any soap made from any mixture of various vegetable oils.

I learned recently, an author even gave a tallow-based soap recipe in their book and called it a "castile" which muddles the meaning even more.

So I don't use "castile" (or "bastile" for that matter) to define a type of soap because the word is basically meaningless.

 

[katp9906]

I totally misread that post I thought they said they used Castile soap. Which isn’t great for shampoo to begin with. Sad they left and didn’t come back. I just found you

Castile is 100% olive oil soap, Bastile is olive oil mixed with other oils and butters. You shouldn’t have to worry about not using those terms because they’re not subjective…. They are the term. If someone doesn’t know what they’re making and calls it Castile, that’s on them. But if you’re making 100% olive oil soap it’s Castile

 

[Hani m. Amaik]

Hi, one way to thicken soap is to include saturated fatty acids in the recipe. For example Myristic Acid (Sodium or Potassium Salt, namely Sodium Myristate or Potassium Myristate) improves thickness, foam, lather, and emulsifying. However, too much Myristate Salts can make the soap drying to the skin and hair.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I learned recently, an author even gave a tallow-based soap recipe in their book and called it a "castile" which muddles the meaning even more.

I read that too and immediately dismissed it hoping others wouldn't get the wrong idea. Obviously, I can surmise on the basis of being a free-lance editor in my past life and a soapmaker in my present life (albeit "retired"), whoever edited that book was not a soapmaker. hehehe

To most consumers and to many other soap makers, it means any soap made from any mixture of various vegetable oils.

Correct. The legal definition, that Kirk's (100% coconut oil) Castile, went to court to prove, is "Castile soap contains no animal fats."

Castile is 100% olive oil soap, Bastile is olive oil mixed with other oils and butters. You shouldn’t have to worry about not using those terms because they’re not subjective…. They are the term.

True, in so far as they are part of the soapmaker's lexicon that appeared online in forums and groups like this to distinguish one from the other. BTW, strictly speaking, to the best of my knowledge and experience, "Bastile" contains at least 70% olive oil.

The fact is, those terms appeared with the advent of the internet -- and long after well-established true castile soap like Kirks and Dr Bronners, that contain no animal fats, had long been available in the public domain. ☺

 

[DeeAnna]

Castile is 100% olive oil soap ... You shouldn’t have to worry about not using those terms because they’re not subjective….

It is true that Castile soap is made with 100% olive oil if you look at the original definition of the word. But that's not the entire original definition. Castile soap was a 100% olive oil soap made only in the Castile region of Spain. It was made with a boiled process using lye derived from the ashes of specific plants that famously grew along the seacoast of the Castile region. Castile soap is demonstratably different than a 100% olive oil soap made with high purity factory-made NaOH and a modern HP or CP method.

So even a narrow "purist's" definition of "castile soap" as merely a 100% olive oil soap is quite a departure from the original definition. It doesn't make sense to insist the One True Definition of castile is a 100% olive oil soap when there was so much more to the original Castile soap than just that.

And this brings me to the idea that castile soap can be a soap made from other vegetable oils other than or in addition to olive oil. Over the past 100 years and more likely closer to 150 years, the worldwide definition of castile soap has become much broader than just a 100% olive oil soap. In 1932, a court case in the USA legally acknowledged the evidence that consumers perceive "castile soap" as any soap made from 100% vegetable oils, not just olive oil.

The court didn't create this definition of castile as an all-veg soap and force it upon the world; the court recognized the evidence that showed this meaning of the term was a established fact even in the 1930s. The court decision gave soap maker Kirks the legal right to use "castile" on their labels, but this legal right was based on this widespread long-standing understanding that this is what "castile" means.

I only have this US court case to cite, but it's clear this isn't limited to the US alone Other countries recognize this definition as well. For example, Kirks and Dr Bronners "castile" soaps are packaged and sold in Australia as castile soap.

Bottom line -- if a soap maker wants others to know exactly and clearly what kind of soap they're talking about, "castile" (or "bastile" for that matter) is not the word to use. Say a 100% olive oil soap. Or an 80:20 coconut : olive soap. Or whatever. Then there is no room for misunderstandings and no reason for yet another semantic wrangle like this.