longer-lasting bars?

[GuacamoleSalad]

Here's my basic recipe:

30% olive oil
30% palm oil
18% coconut oil
9% shea butter
9% sweet almond oil
4% castor oil
+ tetrasodium EDTA

I play around with it some, but generally I use mostly olive and palm and no more than 20% coconut. On that basis I have not been able to increase the "longevity" quality of my bars. They cure at least 4 weeks, usually 6 or more, and they're plenty hard (I think) but they wear away quickly.

Do you have suggestions? I'm open to changes, except for the following: I don't want to increase coconut oil too much as I'm worried about drying, and I don't want to use either tallow or lard. If there's a way to delete palm oil without using tallow or lard I'd also really like to learn about that!

 

[Ekuzo]

Increase the PO, and/or add BW. Or you can use SW instead of PO - for a lower % you will get a harder bar because of the high stearic content

 

[DeeAnna]

Might want to spell the names out -- I'm having trouble following the abbreviations you're using.

PO: Palm oil
BW: ?
SW: soy wax?

 

[Ekuzo]

Palm oil, beeswax, soy wax.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/the-acronym-and-abbreviation-definition-thread.51841/

 

[GuacamoleSalad]

Increase the PO, and/or add BW. Or you can use SW instead of PO - for a lower % you will get a harder bar because of the high stearic content

Thank you! I've tried working with beeswax before and found everything had to get too hot and then solidified too fast. I'm sure I'd get better at it with practice.

Soy wax is intriguing, never thought of that. Appreciate it.

 

[Iluminameluna]

If I may add?
One if the 1st recipes I made using CP included Almond oil and it took forever to harden in the humid climate where I lived @ the time. It wasn't more than 10 or 15% of the formula, IIRC, but it also dissolved in about 2 weeks after 3 mos' cure time. Someone recommended that I remove it since it wasn't really adding much to the recipe, when I could add another solid fat instead. Olive oil is already a slow tracing oil, & dissolves quickly w/out a long cure, adding almond oil to your recipe makes it more challenging. Just my experience though, ymmv.
Also, take into account your weather, how humid is it? When I lived in the semi-tropics I'd add just a bit of the local salt or plain yogurt (not too much, maybe 1 tsp pp of oils), to not only harden the soaps, but add a bit of longevity to them as well. I never sell my soaps. My family is rife w/skin issues & allergies. And my Nanny, my biggest fan, LOVES my lavender Bastile soaps, so once a year I make them just for her w/these additions: the bit of salt & yogurt. Two & ½ pounds of soap cured for 6 weeks, the first soaps she uses, up to the last ones, e/ bar usually last her a month. The last ones, she's told me, will last her almost 2 months, they're so hard. She sometimes will share them, but it's rare. I think she just stashes them for when I won't be able to make them anymore.
Your recipe looks fine overall. Don't increase the CO, for sure, maybe increase the Shea & Palm, see how your numbers look, & then play w/your olive too.
Have fun! It's not supposed to be stressful!

 

[GuacamoleSalad]

If I may add?
One if the 1st recipes I made using CP included Almond oil and it took forever to harden in the humid climate where I lived @ the time. It wasn't more than 10 or 15% of the formula, IIRC, but it also dissolved in about 2 weeks after 3 mos' cure time. Someone recommended that I remove it since it wasn't really adding much to the recipe, when I could add another solid fat instead. Olive oil is already a slow tracing oil, & dissolves quickly w/out a long cure, adding almond oil to your recipe makes it more challenging. Just my experience though, ymmv.
Also, take into account your weather, how humid is it? When I lived in the semi-tropics I'd add just a bit of the local salt or plain yogurt (not too much, maybe 1 tsp pp of oils), to not only harden the soaps, but add a bit of longevity to them as well. I never sell my soaps. My family is rife w/skin issues & allergies. And my Nanny, my biggest fan, LOVES my lavender Bastile soaps, so once a year I make them just for her w/these additions: the bit of salt & yogurt. Two & ½ pounds of soap cured for 6 weeks, the first soaps she uses, up to the last ones, e/ bar usually last her a month. The last ones, she's told me, will last her almost 2 months, they're so hard. She sometimes will share them, but it's rare. I think she just stashes them for when I won't be able to make them anymore.
Your recipe looks fine overall. Don't increase the CO, for sure, maybe increase the Shea & Palm, see how your numbers look, & then play w/your olive too.
Have fun! It's not supposed to be stressful!

Thanks very much! My climate is pretty humid actually, hadn't thought about that. And I haven't tried adding any salts yet but I do have some options in that realm.

Further experiments to come, appreciate the ideas! & don't worry, I am having fun.

 

[Iluminameluna]

And I haven't tried adding any salts yet but I do have some options in that realm.

If you want to try using a salt water w/ your soaps to make them harder or longer lasting, I'd suggest reading some posts on that subject first. NOT salt bars though! Trust me on that!
A friend of mine when I lived in the tropics once brought me actual filtered sea water! It was SO cool to make soap w/ it! Of course I had to use not just CO but also added honey (lucky to have a good supply of it!), but I added fruit puree (bc I could) as well to boost bubbles & lather. I called it my tutti fruity phase to my family & my friend. It made great soap, except he didn't like that I used a cheap fat in it. He thought only Olive oil should've gone into it. Such a snob!!! His loss. His wife loved it though! As did his sons. And MY family.
So you see, how you use an ingredient needs to be thought out. You add 1 thing, it affects others. So make sure to read up on what happens when you add any one ingredient to your soap, & ask, ask, ask!! There's always someone here who knows what's what.
Glad you're enjoying yourself. Happy soaping!

 

[lenarenee]

What percentage of water are you using? If it's high, then a longer cure time will be needed simply because there's more water to evaporate, and the high humidty in your area will slow the process.

In general, curing your soap longer will help with longevity regardless of the recipe. (don't know if it will make enough difference to make you happy though)

When you use the bars, are they left to dry between uses on a well draining soap dish?

One of the hardest bars you can make is a high olive oil soap like a bastile or castile - and at least a 6 month cure time. (just something to add to your list of experiments!)

As for your current recipe, you could add a small percentage of palm oil (5%ish), but be prepared for a quick trace, depending on your water amount and soaping temperature.

 

[Ekuzo]

Thank you! I've tried working with beeswax before and found everything had to get too hot and then solidified too fast. I'm sure I'd get better at it with practice.

Soy wax is intriguing, never thought of that. Appreciate it.

No worries! I know what you mean - BW accelerates and it demands higher temp. It's all about practice, as you said - you will eventually tweak your process to the point you have more control. The cool thing (pun intended) about SW is that it doesn't need that high of a temperature as BW. For example. I soap with BW at 70 C, and with SW - I soap at 50 C.


You can also reduce the SAO as suggested above - I usually do that because to me it's one of the expensive, luxury oils - you can drop it to 5% or so.

When I lived in the semi-tropics I'd add just a bit of the local salt or plain yogurt (not too much, maybe 1 tsp pp of oils), to not only harden the soaps, but add a bit of longevity to them as well.

How does yogurt help with hardness/longevity? Now you got me curious, I haven't had that experience.

 

[GuacamoleSalad]

What percentage of water are you using? If it's high, then a longer cure time will be needed simply because there's more water to evaporate, and the high humidty in your area will slow the process.

I've been using a 33% lye solution. What would you recommend?

 

[DeeAnna]

...How does yogurt help with hardness/longevity? Now you got me curious, I haven't had that experience.

Lactic acid in yogurt reacts with NaOH to make sodium lactate. Sodium lactate adds hardness.

 

[lucycat]

Can I ask how long a bar currently lasts? I find that bar soap at a sink lasts forever, tub with a washcloth a long time but showers are a different story. I can get 3-4 weeks from my bar and I don't use a washcloth. Men with long showers and 2-3 suds up even shorter. More people using a shower means more humidity and softer bars. I just don't find that handmade soap will last as long as a grocery store bar.

As much as I like shea butter, I also think it really makes a difference in hardness over time. I can't tell the difference in hardness between a bar with shea butter compared to cocoa butter at 6 months but at 6 weeks the shea butter will not be as hard in my bars as ones made with cocoa butter. however, cocoa butter is an expensive item in today's market.

I think your 33% lye solution is a good number. The longer you soap you may adjust that to a bit more or less depending on a complicated design or a fragrance that is hard to soap. I think sticking to one solution rate for a year or so helps to make consistency in your process, especially while you are changing other elements.

 

[GuacamoleSalad]

Can I ask how long a bar currently lasts? I find that bar soap at a sink lasts forever, tub with a washcloth a long time but showers are a different story. I can get 3-4 weeks from my bar and I don't use a washcloth. Men with long showers and 2-3 suds up even shorter. More people using a shower means more humidity and softer bars. I just don't find that handmade soap will last as long as a grocery store bar.

Interesting. Maybe I'm just expecting too much. Mine are lasting around 4 weeks in the shower.

I think your 33% lye solution is a good number. The longer you soap you may adjust that to a bit more or less depending on a complicated design or a fragrance that is hard to soap. I think sticking to one solution rate for a year or so helps to make consistency in your process, especially while you are changing other elements.

Great, I appreciate that. I am messing around with other variables as I go ... don't really want to change that one unless/until I have a good reason.

As much as I like shea butter, I also think it really makes a difference in hardness over time. I can't tell the difference in hardness between a bar with shea butter compared to cocoa butter at 6 months but at 6 weeks the shea butter will not be as hard in my bars as ones made with cocoa butter. however, cocoa butter is an expensive item in today's market.

(I'm not completely fluent with this quote tool, ha, things got out of order)

That's interesting. I'd much rather cure bars longer and use shea than use a lot of cocoa.

 

[Ekuzo]

Can I ask how long a bar currently lasts? I find that bar soap at a sink lasts forever, tub with a washcloth a long time but showers are a different story. I can get 3-4 weeks from my bar and I don't use a washcloth. Men with long showers and 2-3 suds up even shorter. More people using a shower means more humidity and softer bars. I just don't find that handmade soap will last as long as a grocery store bar.

As much as I like shea butter, I also think it really makes a difference in hardness over time. I can't tell the difference in hardness between a bar with shea butter compared to cocoa butter at 6 months but at 6 weeks the shea butter will not be as hard in my bars as ones made with cocoa butter. however, cocoa butter is an expensive item in today's market.

I think your 33% lye solution is a good number. The longer you soap you may adjust that to a bit more or less depending on a complicated design or a fragrance that is hard to soap. I think sticking to one solution rate for a year or so helps to make consistency in your process, especially while you are changing other elements.

I agree, no matter what I do my lye soap is just not as hard as the one from grocery store and dissolves faster. And cocoa butter is more expensive than SB here as well, so people usually don't use much in their soap - even though it makes a lovely hard bar (unless you put too much, of course).

Lactic acid in yogurt reacts with NaOH to make sodium lactate. Sodium lactate adds hardness.

Thanks for taking the time to explain, I understand the logic.

In this particular case, however, it would be a little different. She said she usually uses 1 tsp yogurt ppo, which wouldn't provide more than 0.05 gr of lactic acid in the best case scenario (ppo, of course). Even when that small amount produces sodium lactate, it won't come close to 1-3% of oil weight, which people usually use. For a batch of 500gr of oils, at least 5 gr of sodium lactate would be needed to give enough difference in hardness. That means with that much yogurt, the difference shouldn't be noticeable (unless there's another additive, of course - she mentioned she uses table salt as well). And yes, I know that 1 gr of lactic acid probably doesn't turn into 1 gr of sodium lactate (you should be able to provide us with the correct numbers here), but I decided to simplify things, for the sake of the example.

Also, since some of the NaOH will be consumed by the reaction with the lactic acid (even a small amount) - and some of it will be consumed by the reaction with the FA in the milk (again, probably a small amount, depending on the fatty content of the milk) - unless additional NaOH is calculated and added, that will increase the SF a bit and therefore, can contribute to a softer bar of soap.

That being said, in theory using milk/yogurt to help with the hardness of the soap should work, BUT to be most effective, all the liquid in the recipe should be substituted for that milk/yogurt, AND all the NaOH needed for the reactions with the lactic acid and the FA in the milk needs to be accounted for. I hope that makes sense.

 

[lenarenee]

I've been using a 33% lye solution. What would you recommend?

That should be fine; it's what many soapers use as a default.
Your soap lasts about a month in the shower? That's actually quite good.

 

[GuacamoleSalad]

That should be fine; it's what many soapers use as a default.
Your soap lasts about a month in the shower? That's actually quite good.

Great to know. Here I was thinking I was showering too much. Now I'm worried I'm not showering enough ...

 

[akseattle]

Palm oil, beeswax, soy wax.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/the-acronym-and-abbreviation-definition-thread.51841/

@Ekuzo thanks for the link to @IanT 's abbreviation list!!
It seems like I had found it or seen a similar one on the internet, but forgot where.
I guess in the future, I can search for "abbreviation"? on this forum?

I shouldn't get too bogged down but I mix up some abbreviations - one oil for another- (and some outright mystify me- YMMV- ) so it's nice to have a reference sheet. And thank you @IanT !

 

[AliOop]

YMMV = your mileage may vary

HTH = hope that helps

IIRC = if I recall correctly

Spill the tea = tell all the latest gossip important data for navigating social situations

Let me know if you need more. With teenagers in our home, we are in on ALL the cool lingo.

 

[Ekuzo]

@Ekuzo thanks for the link to @IanT 's abbreviation list!!
It seems like I had found it or seen a similar one on the internet, but forgot where.
I guess in the future, I can search for "abbreviation"? on this forum?

I shouldn't get too bogged down but I mix up some abbreviations - one oil for another- (and some outright mystify me- YMMV- ) so it's nice to have a reference sheet. And thank you @IanT !

Actually, when you search for this thread you can find 4 different copies of it ‐ some of them have the additional post by IrishLass, some of them don't - and all 4 have the same date stamp. From what I understand there have been some changes within the forum long ago and duplicates were made, probably by mistake. The link I posted above leads to the one with the most info - and yes, you can use words from the title - and mark the "search titles only" option to make it easier... or just bookmark the link and avoid the trouble

I know, it's really useful - I check it regularly myself