Long time no soap. Help w dough please!

[TashaBird]

Hey guys! It's been a long time since I made soap. I thought making soap dough would be a good reentry. I'm using a recipe I used successfully before. I'll attach a screen shot. My lye water was at about 95-100, my oils were at about 110. No fragrance to act bad. The batch seized up very quickly! with a lot of muscle I mixed some pre oil mixed micas and plopped it into the mold making a huge mess and much smooshing. And it looks like it might even be separating. I can't quite tell yet. I'd hoped to come say hi and share how well my first soap in ages went, but unfortunately I just need help plz. I've got another batch of the same thing prepped. Before I start that one, any thoughts on what went wrong? I'm thinking maybe oils and lye water were too hot? I'll let them cool down to closer to 90 this time. Any other ideas? TIA!
Sorry if I posted in the wrong place, please move it if so. Just hoping for speedy support. And please be your usual compassionate selves, I'm feeling a bit raw.

 

[dragonmaker]

My first thought is to ask if your oils were old. If the oils were old they could be breaking down some which would speed up saponification significantly.

So sorry your first batch in a while is giving you grief. Hopefully you can figure it out and have another good batch instead.

 

[dmcgee5034]

Welcome home, @TashaBird - you have been missed! I haven’t soaped with tallow, but I’m sure someone else will chime in. Weird since there was no FO to muck things up.

 

[TashaBird]

My first thought is to ask if your oils were old. If the oils were old they could be breaking down some which would speed up saponification significantly.

Ah! I would’ve never thought of that. The tallow was oldish, but was kept airtight and cool. It smelled ok… for tallow. How does that work to speed saponification, do you know?

 

[TashaBird]

Well the temps were def too high!! It was still a race at 85-90, but at least it worked! The first batch is separating and a total fail. Not sure if I want to try and save it or just trash it.

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

I am so very glad you are back, @TashaBird!

The tallow was oldish, but was kept airtight and cool. It smelled ok… for tallow. How does that work to speed saponification, do you know?

I’m sure @DeeAnna can chime in, but as oils age, even if they haven’t gone rancid, they still continue to break down and contain more free radicals, which speeds saponification.

My older tallow has been stored in a cold basement in the dark for over a year. I want to do a learning/comparison so I rendered my own tallow to test against an earlier batch and see if there is a difference in how quickly they saponify.

 

[AliOop]

TAAASHAA!! I was just thinking about you the other day (when I was saving some bacon fat, LOL!). Glad you are back to soaping, and sorry to hear that the first batch misbehaved.

I agree with @dragonmaker that it could be old oils. The liquid ones tend to oxidize faster than tallow. Even if you bought them recently, they could have been sitting on the store shelves for awhile.

If it is any comfort, I had probably 6-7 accelerated batches before I figured out that my oil masterbatch had oxidized. I ended up using the last of it to make liquid soap, where acceleration is a good thing. Anyway, it's great to hear from you, and can't wait to see some of your soapy creations!

 

[dragonmaker]

Ah! I would’ve never thought of that. The tallow was oldish, but was kept airtight and cool. It smelled ok… for tallow. How does that work to speed saponification, do you know?

It breaks down into free fatty acids. It’s like adding stearic acid (which is a fatty acid) to your soap - instant saponification aka soap on a stick.

 

[TashaBird]

Thanks guys! I've missed soaping! Your warm welcome is very much appreciated! I wish I could understand the chemistry more about these sorts of things. It's probably the tallow or rice bran oil. They're the oldest. The other two were just bought at Costco, so probably ok. I don't think oils sit for long there! If I'm about to buy another block of tallow, and I'm making soap less often, should I try and portion it up and freeze some? Or I have an extra fridge now, I could keep some in there.
Do you still think the soap dough will be ok to use?

It breaks down into free fatty acids. It’s like adding stearic acid (which is a fatty acid) to your soap - instant saponification aka soap on a stick.

That is what it felt like, acted like, I think. I've rarely had my recipe act like that and it was only when too hot or a funky FO. The second batch today turned out ok, but just barely! It was still a race even soaping at 85!!
With my limited time for soap making I'll likely just throw that first batch out, unless someone has a simple use for it?
Wow, I've really missed you guys!!!

 

[dibbles]

Hi @TashaBird! It’s nice to see you again. I freeze tallow with no ill effects.

 

[AliOop]

My money would be on the RBO as the culprit. It has higher amounts of linoleic and linolenic acid, which oxidize faster than most of the FAs in tallow.

Still, I do freeze my tallow as well. If I had room in a fridge, that would be my preference, so it would defrost faster when I want to soap.

 

[TashaBird]

All so very helpful! Thank you! I've got a bit of the RBO and tallow left and they don't smell bad, and I'd love not to waste them! If I formulated a soap to use them up, knowing how it behaves, and preparing for that, would it be ok to use it up?

 

[AliOop]

All so very helpful! Thank you! I've got a bit of the RBO and tallow left and they don't smell bad, and I'd love not to waste them! If I formulated a soap to use them up, knowing how it behaves, and preparing for that, would it be ok to use it up?

Sure, give it a go! Are you using a chelator? That would help ward off rancidity.

 

[TashaBird]

Sure, give it a go! Are you using a chelator? That would help ward off rancidity.

No. But I've been thinking about it because I use so much tallow. It would help cut down on soap scum also, correct? I have citric acid. Does that work? How much and at what phase is it added?

 

[AliOop]

Yes, citric acid is a good chelator. I like to add it at 1% of the weight of oils, but some people use 2-3%. More than that can cause some problem.

I like to dissolve it in a little bit of batch water that I've separated out, but you can do it in all of your water before you add the NaOH. It helps if the water is warm, but it will eventually dissolve in cold water if you are patient (I'm not, haha!).

You do have to increase the NaOH to offset the amount that the citric acid will neutralize. Do you use the Soapmaking Friend calculator? If so, just check the box below it that says "Liquid Discount" and it will figure the extra lye for you. Here is a picture of that:



If you aren't using that calculator, you will need to manually calculate the amount of citric acid. Every 10g of citric acid neutralizes 6.24g of NaOH.

HTH!

 

[TashaBird]

Yes, citric acid is a good chelator. I like to add it at 1% of the weight of oils, but some people use 2-3%. More than that can cause some problem.

I like to dissolve it in a little bit of batch water that I've separated out, but you can do it in all of your water before you add the NaOH. It helps if the water is warm, but it will eventually dissolve in cold water if you are patient (I'm not, haha!).

You do have to increase the NaOH to offset the amount that the citric acid will neutralize. Do you use the Soapmaking Friend calculator? If so, just check the box below it that says "Liquid Discount" and it will figure the extra lye for you. Here is a picture of that:

View attachment 78475

If you aren't using that calculator, you will need to manually calculate the amount of citric acid. Every 10g of citric acid neutralizes 6.24g of NaOH.

HTH!

You're so awesome! Thank you so much! That's a bit much for my tired brain tonight, but I'll check it out tomorrow. I'll get it dialed in and then make it part of my regular recipe as I ramp back up. I'm so grateful for this forum, you, and all the other soapers here! I'm really happy to be back at it!!

 

[AliOop]

You're so awesome! Thank you so much! That's a bit much for my tired brain tonight, but I'll check it out tomorrow. I'll get it dialed in and then make it part of my regular recipe as I ramp back up. I'm so grateful for this forum, you, and all the other soapers here! I'm really happy to be back at it!!

We are so glad you are back, too!

 

[TashaBird]

We are so glad you are back, too!

Wow! They've really made a lot of improvements to soapmaking friend calculator! What a great resource!! I couldn't make soap without it!! I'll wait until I have my fresh oils before I try to add the CA. When I do add the CA I need to also click the liquid discount button? Does that calculate the extra needed NaOH? I'm a bit confused by the term "liquid discount".

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Well, I'm late to the party and you have all of the advice you need, but I will chime in with a big happy to have you back!

 

[AliOop]

Wow! They've really made a lot of improvements to soapmaking friend calculator! What a great resource!! I couldn't make soap without it!! I'll wait until I have my fresh oils before I try to add the CA. When I do add the CA I need to also click the liquid discount button? Does that calculate the extra needed NaOH? I'm a bit confused by the term "liquid discount".

Yup, click the "Liquid Discount" button underneath the CA to calculate the extra NaOH for either citric acid or vinegar.

I don't know why it's labeled that way, but that's the button to click.

I normally pour my CA solution into the oils, followed immediately by the NaOH solution. Some people dissolve the CA right into their entire amount of distilled water, and then add NaOH to that. Either way works.