Limewater?

[Tara_H]

Curious as to whether anyone on this forum uses/is familiar with this? I've been buying supplies from Aroma-Zone (French website) recently and they have a lot of really interesting recipes (although their soap recipes don't seem great, but many of the others have really good reviews.)

I bought a bottle of limewater (eau de chaux, calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2) out of curiosity since they have a couple of recipes for makeup remover/cleanser which use it. It's also apparently commonly used in France to make "liniment" for cleaning babies since it's very gentle. I made a test batch of cleanser with it the other day and I have to say I'm pretty impressed! Normally I literally just use water to clean my face since almost everything else causes stinging and redness, and while that does fine, I was curious to branch out a bit. I haven't experienced any irritation with this, and my face feels clean but not tight or squeaky after using.

Is there a reason this isn't more widely known/used? Or is it just maybe known under a different name and I'm overlooking the obvious?

 

[DeeAnna]

At its simplest, limewater is just a solution of slaked lime (calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2) diluted in water. Plain limewater is used in some foods -- it keeps pickles crisp. The pH of a limewater solution is above 12, so if anyone thinks soap is bad to use on the skin due to its high pH, they definitely don't want to use limewater.

I believe the product you're talking about that's used as a skin cleanser is a dilute solution of limewater mixed with or emulsified with an oil. I don't think it's just plain limewater. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I've gotten from researching DIY recipes for ""Limewater" skin cleansing recipe" and "limewater linament". Example 1. Example 2.

A dilute solution of limewater would help remove body oils, greasy dirt, and makeup, but I'd think plain limewater alone would be harsh on skin. I suppose the "linament" version might work well, but I'd use it with caution until you know your skin doesn't react to it. I could see some people's skin not able to tolerate even the linament version, just as some cannot use soap. That would be especially true for the face or other delicate areas of the body.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

At its simplest, limewater is just a solution of slaked lime (calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2) diluted in water. Plain limewater is used in some foods -- it keeps pickles crisp. The pH of a limewater solution is above 12, so if anyone thinks soap is bad to use on the skin due to its high pH, they definitely don't want to use limewater.

I believe the product you're talking about that's used as a skin cleanser is a dilute solution of limewater mixed with or emulsified with an oil. I don't think it's just plain limewater. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I've gotten from researching DIY recipes for ""Limewater" skin cleansing recipe" and "limewater linament". Example 1. Example 2.

A dilute solution of limewater would help remove body oils, greasy dirt, and makeup, but I'd think plain limewater alone would be harsh on skin. I suppose the "linament" version might work well, but I'd use it with caution until you know your skin doesn't react to it. I could see some people's skin not able to tolerate even the linament version, just as some cannot use soap. That would be especially true for the face or other delicate areas of the body.

Oh this Comp sound interesting' I'm gonna check them out. How is there EO / FO?

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm not really comfortable with the DIY versions, just so you know. Neither example I gave uses a microbial preservative or antioxidant. One blogger made some ignorant comments about the supposed badness of the preservatives found in commercial versions and how you can eliminate that badness by making your own product without preservatives. As if microbial growth and other decomposition processes are somehow safer or better.

 

[Tara_H]

At its simplest, limewater is just a solution of slaked lime (calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2) diluted in water. Plain limewater is used in some foods -- it keeps pickles crisp. The pH of a limewater solution is above 12, so if anyone thinks soap is bad to use on the skin due to its high pH, they definitely don't want to use limewater.

I believe the product you're talking about that's used as a skin cleanser is a dilute solution of limewater mixed with or emulsified with an oil. I don't think it's just plain limewater. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I've gotten from researching DIY recipes for ""Limewater" skin cleansing recipe" and "limewater linament". Example 1. Example 2.

A dilute solution of limewater would help remove body oils, greasy dirt, and makeup, but I'd think plain limewater alone would be harsh on skin. I suppose the "linament" version might work well, but I'd use it with caution until you know your skin doesn't react to it. I could see some people's skin not able to tolerate even the linament version, just as some cannot use soap. That would be especially true for the face or other delicate areas of the body.

Sorry, yes I should have been more specific! It's emulsified with olive oil; they're very clear about not using it in its pure form.

This was my recipe in the end (based on one of theirs with minor adjustments):
Oil phase -
Olive oil - 38g
Calendula infused olive oil - 10g
Vanilla infused sesame oil - 5g
Beeswax - 2g

Water phase -
Limewater - 51g

Cooldown phase -
Lavender EO - 2g

I'm not really comfortable with the DIY versions, just so you know. Neither example I gave uses a microbial preservative or antioxidant. One blogger made some ignorant comments about the supposed badness of the preservatives found in commercial versions and how you can eliminate that badness by making your own product without preservatives. As if microbial growth and other decomposition processes are somehow safer or better.

Their recipes all include a particular preservative that I don't have, so in its absence I made a tiny portion, in as sterile conditions as I could achieve, and put it in an airless bottle. If I decide it's a keeper I'll go ahead and order the preservative from them to make a larger quantity.

 

[DeeAnna]

As written, none of the DIY recipes, including yours, are emulsified. They're just oil and water mixtures that should be shaken well before use. Beeswax will thicken the mixture and perhaps slow the separation of the limewater from the oil, but beeswax alone doesn't function as an emulsifier.

What preservative is being used in the product you refer to?

 

[Tara_H]

As written, none of the DIY recipes, including yours, are emulsified. They're just oil and water mixtures that should be shaken well before use. Beeswax will thicken the mixture and perhaps slow the separation of the limewater from the oil, but beeswax alone doesn't function as an emulsifier.

What preservative is being used in the product you refer to?

Oh - I went back to check and it seems I was mistaken! I must have been thinking about some other recipes I was looking up. I've also been looking at their toothpaste recipes so most likely I confused those.

The impression I get though, is that the limewater reacts with the oil in a similar way to the soap making process, although I'd need to go and re-read to see if that's actually how it works. I'd be surprised if they left out a preservative when it was necessary; that particular site sells a variety of them and generally includes the appropriate one where it's needed.

 

[DeeAnna]

The calcium ions from calcium hydroxide will react with soap to form soap scum.

But without adding heat, I seriously doubt calcium hydroxide can saponify fat. Fatty acids ... possibly ... but fats ... I'm doubtful.

But I haven't dug into the chemistry very deeply, so I might be missing something and could very easily be wrong.

 

[Tara_H]

I really should stop posting serious questions when I only have a short amount of time to post.

without adding heat, I seriously doubt calcium hydroxide can saponify fat

To give additional detail, the two phases are heated to 70 degrees before being blended together - I have no idea how much heat would be required, but there is certainly some involved.

The rest of the process was: add the oil phase to the water phase while blending vigorously - the mixture becomes white and homogeneous. After about 3 minutes, transfer the container (still mixing) to a cold water bath and continue for another 3 minutes, then add the cool down phase, mix thoroughly, and transfer to a sanitised container.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

I'm with @DeeAnna and don't think that major “saponification” with calcium hydroxide will happen:

1. Ca(OH)₂ only appears to be weaker alkaline than NaOH etc. because it is so poorly soluble in water, to some 0.1%. So even though the cations (Ca²⁺, or for regular soap Na⁺ or K⁺) don't take part in the saponification reaction, the concentration of OH⁻ will be super low (2 to 3 orders of magnitude lower than with regular soapmaking).
2. Even if some fat molecules are cleaved by the scarce OH⁻ (or free fatty acids that naturally occur in the olive oil, neutralised), fatty acid anions will readily catch a calcium ion to precipitate as soap scum. Soap works worse in hard water, and this is water with artificially inflated hardness.

Either effect makes “soapmaking” in the traditional sense somewhere between ultra inefficient and outright impossible. Not to speak that the final product is not “soap” in the narrower sense (doesn't lather, doesn't make mud and excess fats water-rinsable. And it's formally at 98% “superfat” (saturated Ca(OH)₂ solution assumed).

What is likely to happen is that minor, but still present reactions bind the free hydroxide ions, i. e. lower pH towards a more skin-friendly (but also microbe-friendly) level, and liberates some surface-active compounds (diglycerides) that help counteract/decelerate (but not permanently prevent) coalescence of the oil phase.

white and homogeneous

BTW, strictly (microscopically) speaking that's a contradiction. Either white or homogeneous. If the mix were homogeneous, there were no internal surfaces that could scatter light and create the impression of the colour “white”. Homogeneous solutions (sea water, diluted LS) are always clear and “flat” on a microscopic level, but a heterogeneous mix like an emulsion (liniment, milk, emulsified soap batter) or suspension (wall paint, pre-mixed titanium dioxide), is a chaotic mess on a microscopic scale.
But as said above, you'll have miniscule soap scum crystals, as well as a ton of tiny oil droplets with even tinier water droplets dispersed inside them, maybe a bit of air bubbles, essential oils, bulky beeswax crystal fragments etc.

 

[Tara_H]

I'm not arguing for or against saponification happening here Just curious to understand this mysterious 'liniment', and why it seems to be so popular in France, and almost unknown elsewhere.

Looking on the Eau de Chaux page on that site again, I noticed this paragraph:
- Pour la réalisation de liniment, il est conseillé de ne pas trop modifier la formule de base, donc de rester sur des huiles liquides et surtout composées d'acide oléique et linoléique au niveau des acides gras (l'indice de saponification doit être autour de 185-195) : Olive, Tournesol (et nos macérâts huileux sur base Tournesol), Abricot, Camélia, Sésame, ... Au contraire, éviter les huiles avec des acides gras "spéciaux" comme l'huile de Ricin, Chaulmoogra, Jojoba, Abyssinie... et les huiles solides à température ambiante (Coco, Piqui, Babassu...).

(Translation: To make the liniment, it is advisable not to change the basic formula too much, so to stay with liquid oils and those composed especially of oleic and linoleic acid at the level of fatty acids (the saponification index must be around 185-195): Olive, Sunflower (and our Sunflower oil based infusions), Apricot, Camellia, Sesame... On the contrary, avoid oils with "special" fatty acids such as Castor oil, Chaulmoogra, Jojoba, Abyssinia... and oils that are solid at room temperature‎ (Coconut, Pequi, Babassu))

Still not clear if there's a saponification element to the process, but certainly they are strongly implying that the particular fatty acids take part in a reaction to create it.

The final product itself is a creamy liquid, like very lightly whipped double cream. I haven't noticed any signs of separation so far, but it's only been a couple of days and as I said it's a very small quantity. It feels a little oily to the touch, but used as a cleanser with a cotton pad it leaves my face feeling clean and not greasy in any way. It rinses off easily with water and doesn't leave any noticeable residue.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Mon dieu, j'ai commencé à lire le texte en Français, jusqe j'ai découvert that you have already included the translation service
(Had to look up “piqui”, and both my superfluous-supplies-wishlist and my things-to-do-when-I'm-grown-up-and-travelling-through-Brazil list grew by an item each…)

Well, it sounds like not as much a limitation to be restricted to oleic/linoleic oils. On the other hand, it obviously isn't something special to olive oil then.

Guess there is no way around trying it myself too

 

[Zany_in_CO]

beeswax alone doesn't function as an emulsifier.

Point of Interest? -- This reminded me of "back in the day" when ladies made cold cream by a similar process. I tried it. Not easy to do successfully. Here's a recipe I found on line:

HOMEMADE COLD CREAM (GOOD THING BY JILLEE)

1/4 teaspoon borax
1/4 cup distilled water
1/2 cup fractionated coconut oil, or other liquid oil of preference.
1/2 ounce (by weight) grated beeswax (2 tablespoons)
5-6 drops lavender essential oil or EO of choice (Optional)

Dissolve the borax in the water in a (one cup) glass measuring cup. Set aside. Borax is generally used for cleaning purposes but it’s necessary in this recipe to make the cold cream emulsify and come out right.

Add together the oil and beeswax in a 2-cup glass measuring cup.
Microwave until the beeswax is melted and the mixture is clear. (Start with 30 seconds at a time).
Microwave the borax/water for a minute – almost to boiling.
Slowly pour the borax/water mixture into the oil/beeswax mixture, using a stick blender to mix as you pour. Now beat well with the stick blender until the mix is glossy white and thicken.
Pour the (hot) cold cream into an 8-ounce jar with a lid.
Cool to room temperature then add essential oil if desired.

the two phases are heated to 70 degrees before being blended together

I assume you mean 70°C? 158°F? aka Pasteurization Temperature

I literally just use water to clean my face since almost everything else causes stinging and redness, and while that does fine, I was curious to branch out a bit.

You may be interested in reading this thread:
ZANY'S DEEP CLEANSING OIL

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Mon dieu, j'ai commencé à lire le texte en Français, jusqe j'ai découvert that you have already included the translation service

Haha. I almost did that too but caught myself in time!

 

[Tara_H]

I assume you mean 70°C?

Ah, yes indeed I do. I usually make an effort to convert for my friends across the water but I must have missed this one!

You may be interested in reading this thread:
ZANY'S DEEP CLEANSING OIL

Thanks, I'll check it out! In fact I'm getting along well with the "liniment" cleanser, no issues so far at all, and my skin feels softer and smoother than usual.

I meant to update on the 'rinsing' aspect actually, after typing the above I noticed that although it doesn't look or feel like there's a residue on my hands after rinsing, they do look more waterproof while under the running water.

 

[DeeAnna]

@Zany -- beeswax and borax together, as used in that coldcream recipe, do create an emulsifier system -- a difficult one, but an emulsifier nonetheless. Beeswax alone is simply a thickener.