Labeling

[SPowers]

Hi all... I've just been reading a thread on labeling and there is talk about in-the-pot ingredients vs out-of-the-pot ingredients. I'm not sure at all what that means. Is an oil that goes into the pot (coconut oil for example) called something different out of the pot which I'm guessing means after sapponification?

I'm in Canada and the thread was a Canadian soap thread but I think the definitions of those terms would be the same.

Thanks!

 

[DeeAnna]

Yes, you have it right.

Coconut oil and sodium hydroxide go into the pot. Sodium cocoate comes out of the pot.

 

[SPowers]

Thank you... is there some place I can go to look for more information on the different names. A google search wasn't coming up with much.

 

[DeeAnna]

What you're wanting to know is the "INCI" nomenclature (names) for various types of soap and other ingredients in finished soap.

Here are two resources to get you started --
https://vermontsoap.com/business/resources/ingredients/inci-names/https://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/PDFS/SaponifedTerms.pdf
For more, use your favorite search engine and the keywords ... INCI nomenclature soap

 

[SPowers]

This is perfect! Thanks so much for this!

 

[AliOop]

Check out MarieGale.com for more rules about labeling. Not sure how much of it applies to Canada as opposed to the US.

 

[MaryinOK]

This will likely open a can of worms, but it seems to me that the main reason that most of those that like to list "out of the pot" ingredients is that they don't like the idea of listing sodium hydroxide. My thoughts on the matter is that sooner or later you will have to have that chemical conversation, so you might as well get your practice in now.

 

[SPowers]

What I am hearing is the Out of the Pot ingredients must be show on labels in Canada. Having said that, there are still some saying they only use in the pot - I haven't been able to find the most accurate info at this point in time. Trying to cover all bases for when I do.

 

[DeeAnna]

...it seems to me that the main reason that most of those that like to list "out of the pot" ingredients is that they don't like the idea of listing sodium hydroxide...

This is not necessarily true. Some governing agencies require an "out of the pot" ingredients list -- I believe the EU is one.

Those in the US who don't want to list sodium hydroxide usually still want to list the starting fats, not the saponified results. So the "what comes out of the pot" method isn't any more appealing to these soap makers as the "what goes in the pot" method. Instead, they use all kinds of creative approaches to having their cake and eating it too. Like "saponified fats of ..." and variations on that theme.

In the US, there are no requirements for an ingredients list for true lye-based soap IF it is sold with no claim other than "it just gets you clean". You don't need any ingredients list at all if you don't want to use one. Or if you do, you can use that "saponified fats..." verbiage if that's what you want.

Once there are any cosmetics claims made for the soap, however, then a proper ingredients list is required. In the US, you can use a "what goes into the pot" method or a "what comes out of the pot" method, but you have to use one or the other.

If you make a drug claim, the rules are even more stringent.

Marie Gale and the US FDA website are the go-to sources of info on this topic.

 

[MaryinOK]

This is not necessarily true. Some governing agencies require an "out of the pot" ingredients list -- I believe the EU is one.

Those in the US who don't want to list sodium hydroxide usually still want to list the starting fats, not the saponified results. So the "what comes out of the pot" method isn't any more appealing to these soap makers as the "what goes in the pot" method. Instead, they use all kinds of creative approaches to having their cake and eating it too. Like "saponified fats of ..." and variations on that theme.

In the US, there are no requirements for an ingredients list for true lye-based soap IF it is sold with no claim other than "it just gets you clean". You don't need any ingredients list at all if you don't want to use one. Or if you do, you can use that "saponified fats..." verbiage if that's what you want.


If you make a drug claim, the rules are even more stringent.

Marie Gale and the US FDA website are the go-to sources of info on this topic.

You are absolutely correct. I forgot that not everyone has to adhere to the FDA rules. <hangs head> I would urge anyone in the USA to get Marie Gale's book. I found it very useful. My problem with the listing of "saponified oils of" or just the "out of the pot" list (here in the USA) is that the vast majority have not got their soaps analyzed so they may well not be in the required descending order. (I know, I'm pedantic)

 

[DeeAnna]

Oh, I'm very much of your mindset about this. I use "what goes in the pot" for my ingredients lists and I follow FDA cosmetic rules. That way I give my customers, friends, and family all the info they need to make good decisions. And I also don't have to worry if I cross the line into making mild cosmetic claims.

 

[Tigger2]

In the US, cosmetic products and ingredients (with the exception of color additives) do not require approval from the FDA before they hit the market. Soap is a whole other category for US citizens. If your products meet the FDA's definition of “soap”, they are exempt from the provisions of the FD&C Act.