Is this Greed or Business?

[Cheeky Goat]

That’s a really good point Vicki, I would have considered that first. Even worse that it sounds like he really was!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I mean we are ALL constantly inspired by each other and that's a good thing, and usually it's flattering that someone liked an idea enough to copy it, right?

True. I would take comfort in that. We cannot know his motives. It's best to wish him well and get on with your life. As @KiwiMoose notes in her sig line, "Be kind because everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."

 

[paradisi]

Um, no, it's more like he's a predator, he used his position to gain access and then to exploit the work she'd done. Flattery would be emulating an idea, not wholesale copying her.

Not unlike the FB group copying new popular scents and profiting off someone else's work. Both are vulture business models.

Too, consider that the more places like BB are ripped off, the higher they have to price things to get their initial investment back. The vultures are making money not just at Anne Marie's expense, but at the expense of everyone else who shops at BB.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

@paradisi Your point is well-taken. However, if we are to create a kinder, gentler nation, å la Alex Trebek, let it begin with me. It's sad that we condemn a person to criminal behavior when he isn't here to defend himself. For all we know, his motive may have been to provide for his family during these trying times. I've never met a "rich" college professor, know what I mean?

 

[MaryinOK]

I got snookered at Costco when I picked up a box of my favorite Vita Coco Coconut Water. It wasn't until I got home that I realized it was a KIRKLAND brand. Shamefully similar packaging, same ingredients with one iota of difference.

Well, many manufacturers make identical (or almost identical) products for several name brands and Box stores. Many years ago my son worked at a company that made several lines of cosmetics. Some very well-known and pricey, some less known and more moderately priced. The only difference was the fanciness of the container and the label. However, this is not an underhand practice - lots of companies do this.

 

[rdc1978]

This reminds me of those malt o meal bagged cereals. I know I'm a sucker but I need original frosted mini wheats even if they are all made in the same place!

Having to pay more in light of FO dupes is a good point. It stinks because I know that, for some, the cost of f/o is prohibitive. And that really stinks too because I think f/o are such fun and everyone should enjoy them. But at the same time, BB isn't giving it away! I wonder how much any of this affects their bottom line?

 

[Johnez]

I found this topic while searching for how to make a fragrance, however this does present a moral dilemma I never thought of. Going the easy route to send something off to a lab to figure out how to copy it sounds pretty scummy but I'm pretty sure this is common practice in the shaving soap world. There's some well respected brands that use terms like "inspired by" and then your favorite cologne. Creed aventus, YSL la Nuit, even Drakkar noir lol. Speaking of Creed aventus, there's numerous copies of that fragrance itself-all sold aboveboard, many current fragrances on the market. Heck I've even seen the "dupe" of original "Old Spice" here. The idea of copying somebody else's work stinks, but can a dupe really copy something perfectly? BB and WW are selling their products at a premium for more than their scent, but also based on reputation and being well run organizations. These people going the dupe route do not receive any of the benefits other than the scent itself and take the risk of getting bad product with no recourse. I have a feeling the companies aren't losing tons of money over this being they offer way more and have legion of fans.

I don't really have a horse in this race, but it seems that facebook group is doing something that is already an industry practice. I can't decide whether it's right or wrong, but perhaps that is because it seems so commonplace already that it never struck me as something to question.

 

[Saponificarian]

@Johnez I have no problem with suppliers that dupe Adventus and other Creed line, to my way of thinking they don’t make fragrance oils that you can use to make candles or soap etc.

What I have a problem with is duping Fragrance oils that is still strictly fragrance oils from small businesses who invested a ton of money into research to develop these fragrance oils. Shen then turn around to sell these knockoffs for less than the original supplier. This is cannibalism. Some of these fragrances she is wanting to dupe are new fragrance oils from these suppliers.

 

[Johnez]

@Johnez I have no problem with suppliers that dupe Adventus and other Creed line, to my way of thinking they don’t make fragrance oils that you can use to make candles or soap etc.

What I have a problem with is duping Fragrance oils that is still strictly fragrance oils from small businesses who invested a ton of money into research to develop these fragrance oils. Shen then turn around to sell these knockoffs for less than the original supplier. This is cannibalism. Some of these fragrances she is wanting to dupe are new fragrance oils from these suppliers.

I feel you are right, that this is morally wrong and they would agree if they stopped to exam their actions. I wonder if a tersely worded cease and desist letter would get their attention. I have the feeling they are cutting corners elsewhere like by not filing the proper paperwork to operate a business, filing and paying their taxes, etc. This will eventually catch up to them, however in the meantime others might get the same idea. I hope that's not the case already. :-/

 

[paradisi]

Well, many manufacturers make identical (or almost identical) products for several name brands and Box stores. Many years ago my son worked at a company that made several lines of cosmetics. Some very well-known and pricey, some less known and more moderately priced. The only difference was the fanciness of the container and the label. However, this is not an underhand practice - lots of companies do this.

What you're describing is known as Private Label manufacturing and is done as a business deal between the two companies; Business A repacks something it makes, sells it to Business B who resells it.

Not only legal, but done with full consent and agreement of both parties. Often there are strict licensing agreements.

Very different from copying someone else's work without their permission.

 

[fizzin_A]

I think when you have admiration and respect for a smaller company that has put a lot of effort into developing unique fragrances and maybe have interacted with them in some capacity, getting duped hits a lot harder. Right or wrong is not my place to say, but this happens all the time in the fragrance industry sadly.

There's some well respected brands that use terms like "inspired by" and then your favorite cologne. Creed aventus, YSL la Nuit, even Drakkar noir lol. Speaking of Creed aventus, there's numerous copies of that fragrance itself-all sold aboveboard, many current fragrances on the market. Heck I've even seen the "dupe" of original "Old Spice" here.

This is a really good example; Aventus was a very unique fragrance when it was released in 2010. There was nothing like it on the market at the time and it became very popular even at $400+ for 120ml. Now there are several dupes on the market at a fraction of the cost; Armaf Club De Nuit Intense for Men, Afnan Silver Supremacy, L'Aventure by Al Haramain, Zara Vibrant Leather, Mont Blanc Explorer, Pineapple Vintage just to name a few. Heck DUA has a whole line of Aventus clones trying to replicate batch variations.

It's even rumored that Mont Blanc released Explorer as an Aventus knock off in retaliation for Creed ripping off MB Individual with their release of Original Santal.

DUA, Armaf, and Maison Margiela 'Replica' are even considered clone houses. All they do is duplicate already established fragrances and they do it with no shame at all.

Even designers rip off other designers all the time. For example Dior Sauvage, it wasn't long before Prada Luna Rosa Carbon came out as a very similar fragrance. Same thing with Versace Dylan Blue ripping off Bleu De Chanel. Even BBW has released product lines inspired by popular fragrances, example Midnight smells like Sauvage and Forest smells like Aventus.

As someone pointed out in this thread already, you can't really patent a smell. The exception being if you were to create a brand new synthetic molecule or fragrance ingredient, then it can be registered as a Trademark; Akigalawood for example.

Anyway, I'm not trying to justify the behavior in any way, just pointing out that the fragrance industry is a brutal business and dupes have become common place.

 

[Basil]

Just another thought:
My business is very small. But before I decided to create a business I worked hard and had a lot of trial and error in the process of creating what I felt were high quality, top-notch products that I would want to use myself. Then I put a lot of time and thought into my branding and what I wanted people to think of when they saw or heard my company name. After that came my packaging, website, and displays to carry out my ideas and I created a business that makes me happy and proud.
A few years ago, a professor from one of the local colleges kept visiting my tent at a weekly market I used to attend. He came every week and bought a few items each time. After a few months he told me he taught business marketing classes and would like to take pictures of my tent, signage, and products in order to show his students what good branding looks like. I was over the moon and let him take all the pics he wanted! I mean, how flattering that I was doing something so right that it caught the notice of someone who actually teaches people HOW to do this, right??
So this guy uses all those pictures to replicate my products for his own business. Same product line, same packaging, even the same freaking font and words/spacing!!! The only thing he changed was his business name and logo and EVEN those were only slightly altered from my own!!
The only way I found out about this was because several of my regular customers bought some of his products from the local spas he was peddling them to because they thought it was my stuff and started calling me to say they weren't happy with my changes. When I told them I didn't sell at those locations they looked a little closer and saw that these weren't my products. I was furious, but what can you do? Pretty much nothing. What he did wasn't illegal, but it was certainly unethical. Thankfully Karma bit him on his behind because a few of my customers took issue with his tactics and complained to the stores where he was selling his products. None of them carry his products anymore,
I think one of the things that bothered me the most was that he bragged on his website that his extensive background in business and marketing led him to create a unique luxury line of soap and skin-care products that are akin to Tiffany jewelry - "It just makes you feel special. Everything from my luxury products to my signature packaging and gift bags are pure indulgence."
Yeah, that came directly from ME!! He wanted to know (for his students) what led me to create my packaging and labels, and why I spent the money and time to purchase and hand stamp my bags with my business name and logo. I told him: "It's like Tiffany, ya know? It's part of the whole experience and feeling of luxury. You never throw away a Tiffany bag, it's too cool. I want my customers to feel that way about my company." What a snake.
Sorry for the long rambling post, but this was the first thing I thought of when I read the original post. It doesn't feel good when someone else takes credit for your hard work and ideas.

I’m late in reading this, but your post reminds me of an episode on Schitt’s Creek. A story very similar . So wrong. I’m sorry that happened to you.

 

[Basil]

Thanks, y'all!
I'm normally one of the most laid-back people ever and it doesn't bother me when I find out someone attempted to copy something that I felt was original to me. I mean we are ALL constantly inspired by each other and that's a good thing, and usually it's flattering that someone liked an idea enough to copy it, right? But this guy went WAYYY too far.
And he definitely IS a professor!! When all this was going on I looked him up on the college website and there he was -the jerk.
One of my customers (who worked in admin at the same college - our market was only a block away) reported him for unethical behavior. I never found out if anything came of this, but I do know that he took down his website a few weeks later.

I feel like he went way too far as well. The display , packaging and wording took it to the next level. I’m not sure how he could feel good about that. When I first started making soap I was so anxious trying not to do anything the same as someone else . I thought I’d offend. I did learn through this forum that it was ok and soapers are happy to share and help but what he did was different . IMHO....