Introduction and Castile paste

[MzMolly65]

Hello all,

This is my first time posting and my first time making soap. I wasn't actually interested in making soap .. I'm a plaster artist and one process called Tadelakt requires waterproofing the plaster by spraying it with a special olive oil soap and then rubbing it until the soap has penetrated the plaster.

The ingredients on the container of Tadelakt soap I bought were listed as water, olive oil, potassium hydroxide. I did a little research thinking I could make my own and now I'm a soap making addict ... but I haven't even made my first batch of soap yet, LOL!

The soap I need to make is based on the original soap used in the Turkish hammam's (baths). The only recipe for this soap I have been able to find is:


Olive oil - 10.58 oz (300 g.)
Coconut oil - 2.12 oz (60 g.)
Castor oil - 1.41 oz (40 g.)
Water - 4.94 oz (140 g.)
Potassium hydroxide - 2.57 oz (72.92 g.)
SF 8% (enter the value of SF in a soap calculator at the moment of calculating recipe)
Eucalyptus leaves - 3.53 oz (100 g.)
[FONT=&quot]Eucalyptus essential oil - 0.28 oz (8 g.)

So ... since I don't want all the other oils and scents I used the lye calculator with KOH, 35% water, 100% OO and a SF of 8%. Is that correct?

I calculated a small batch so I wouldn't waste a lot of product in my first attempts (in case I flop)

Does it sound like I'm doing this right? Any advice would be appreciated. I have all my supplies and have been reading and watching videos for about a month, LOL! I think I'm ready to try making this.

ETA: the Tadelakt soap I bought is a thick, clear paste that looks like hair gel and you mix it with water before spraying it on the plaster. That brings up my next question .. can I put the gelled soap directly into containers? Will it cool correctly?
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[Yooper]

I'm definitely no expert on liquid soap, but I have made a 100% castille soap and it came out very nice.

You don't want to superfat a liquid soap. If you're worried about it being lye heavy, use at most 1-2% superfat. Otherwise, it won't "work". Generally, liquid soap is made with a slight excess of KOH, to ensure that all free fatty acids are neutralized. You neutralize it (well, not to neutral but to a lower pH) later when you dilute.

I diluted the paste to make liquid soap, but you can store the paste if you want. Catherine Failor's book would be a great resource for you, as it has all the hows and whys of liquid soap and gel making.

 

[Feather]

I am also no expert in liquid soap.

Still, is the paste you buy superfatted? Is it neutralized?
(how are you going to test for that?)
I'd be concerned you are trying to produce a product and you don't know the answer to the two questions above. (assuming it works well with the application of it to the plaster)

As long as the bought paste works, you'd want to duplicate it. You'll have to know the answers to the three questions.

 

[MzMolly65]

Still, is the paste you buy superfatted? Is it neutralized?
(how are you going to test for that?)

Good questions that I don't know the answer to.

I am piecing together bits of information I've found here and there.

1. A book I have on the Tadelakt process talks about using the same pure OO soap that is used in the bath houses.

2. The only recipe I could find (that I listed in my first post) listed superfat at 8% and said nothing about neutralizing. Also, they take it to trace and then to thick opaque paste but they don't further heat the opaque paste to process it to gel stage, they put it in tightly sealed containers and leave it sit for a month to "ripen" (their word). When it's ripened the finished product is a clear gel/paste and,

3. my only other bit of information is the ingredients listed on the container of purchased soap (posted in my original post as well).

Is it possible that leaving it to ripen, as they say, is what neutralizes it?

They use the paste direct on the skin and hair without diluting it. Plasterers add water only so they can spray it on the plaster but they are using the exact same soap that the bathers use.

I also want to clarify, I've seen the soap available for sale with eucalyptus in it, or with other things like lemon, orange, jasmine or rose .. etc, but the stuff plasterers use is always unscented and always just OO, water and KOH. In other words the recipe sounds right to me but for my purposes I want to eliminate the ingredients not in the simple version the plasterers buy because the other ingredients might interfere with curing the plaster. (or maybe plasterers just don't want the bathroom walls to smell like roses, LOL!)

Is there a way to test the purchased Tadelakt soap to find any answers?

ETA: Oh ya, one guy in the USA says he just uses Kiss My Face OO bar soap to cure his Tadelakt (ingredients: Saponified Olive Oil, Water, Sodium Chloride) .. but he said he had to shred it and then dilute the shreds in water. Seems time consuming to me and again, I'm thinking expense and I'd rather try making my own soap.

 

[Lin]

If you ARE superfatting, then I would say you don't need to neutralize it. It also sounds like their method is a cross between hot process and cold process, where they aren't bringing it to gel but leaving it alone for the remaining lye to saponify the fats at a low temperature. If you want to repeat this, I would go ahead with the superfat and do as they say to stop before gel, set the soap aside, and then ph test it to ensure its safe after its been sitting a while. In making cold process soap you don't neutralize because you have the superfat as a safety net for the lye calculation, and then zap test or ph test to ensure everything went smoothly.

 

[MzMolly65]

Thank you for this reply. I'm excited to try this and hope it works. Any idea what pH I'd be testing for?

 

[Lin]

someone may correct me here, but after its been sitting for a few days it will probably be around 9. If its still too high, test it again after a full week for before doing anything with the soap. In cold process, the soap is then left alone for a few weeks (up to months to harden castile bars) when the ph will further lower to around 7. Since this soap isn't for use on skin, I'd say as long as its not lye heavy (you could probably zap test the paste? lol, in zap testing you touch the tip of your tongue to a bar of soap to see if it tingles or zaps) its safe to use. But I don't know how the additional lowering of ph over time affects this use, in soap for skin it makes the soap milder.

 

[Feather]

Lin gave you very good advice.

I'd test the bought paste for PH with a PH tester or strips, then I'd make a paste of the same PH to assure the same paste will have the same affect on the plaster. (and as Lin said, let it sit until it is fully saponified and the PH is more toward 7)

The neutralizing can be time consuming. If you look around you'll see there is another process to make this using glycerin instead of water which is faster and there is no need to neutralize it. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VUGV_H7bZU[/ame]

 

[MzMolly65]

Thank you everyone .. the first batch of soap is in the crock pot now. *crosses fingers*

 

[whitetiger_0603]

If you superfat after the paste is made, you still need to neutralize. Superfatting during can cause a fat excess and cloud your soap. Or the extra fat will float or settle out after dilution.

Feather, how does the glycerine method not require neutralization? Glycerin doesn't get saponified, and it doesn't neutralize on its on as an additive like Citric Acid or Borax do.

 

[Feather]

Feather, how does the glycerine method not require neutralization? Glycerin doesn't get saponified, and it doesn't neutralize on its on as an additive like Citric Acid or Borax do.

Whitetiger, It was stated in the soaping 101 making the liquid soap video, no neutralization is needed for this method. Other than that, I'm just learning myself!

 

[whitetiger_0603]

Imma have to research that one later on. That just sounds odd.

 

[MzMolly65]

If you look around you'll see there is another process to make this using glycerin instead of water which is faster and there is no need to neutralize it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VUGV_H7bZU

Since I'm uncertain how glycerin would effect the plaster process I'm sticking to the basic ingredients that are listed on the purchased package. If they've included anything else and they're not listing it ... I'm sure I'll find out the hard way.

 

[Feather]

Since I'm uncertain how glycerin would effect the plaster process I'm sticking to the basic ingredients that are listed on the purchased package. If they've included anything else and they're not listing it ... I'm sure I'll find out the hard way.

MzMolly, you'll learn the hard way first, and you'll be smarter for it. You go! I trust you and I'd love to hear how this all works out.

Glycerin is a natural byproduct of making soap, it may not affect the plaster in a negative way since soap has glycerin in it already without adding more glycerin.
If you look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saponification
There is a picture on the right hand side of the page showing the molecules after saponification.

I was just thinking, that since the manufacturer of the product probably does it in the most expedient way, they may also be using the glycerin method, there is no way to know without asking them.

 

[MzMolly65]

I was just thinking, that since the manufacturer of the product probably does it in the most expedient way, they may also be using the glycerin method, there is no way to know without asking them.

Not necessarily. The soap is coming out of places like Turkey and Morocco where traditional Tadelakt plaster is still gently rubbed by hand for hours .. no mechanical processes used. Even here in the west there isn't a way to mechanically speed up the Tadelakt, it's all done by hand.

So it would not surprise me if the soap is also being made the traditional, slow, labourous way.

Either way, it's a fun experiment. Right now my witches brew has been in the crock pot on high for several hours and while it traced fairly quick it has not gotten to the super thick paste stage yet. It looks like it wants to so I'm still hopeful it's not a complete fail. After it traced I left it alone except for 1/2 hour checks and stirs. I'm uncertain what to expect because it's not acting the way the instructions or the videos have described it.

 

[Feather]

What is the reason for the process? What does it do to the plaster. I've just never heard of it and I'm very curious.

 

[MzMolly65]

What is the reason for the process? What does it do to the plaster. I've just never heard of it and I'm very curious.

It soaks into the first few millimeters of the plaster and waterproofs it. They use it for bathroom walls, tubs, sinks, etc. I want to use it for birdbaths and outdoor furniture made from a cement base, then plastered with Tadelakt.

I reread my instructions and realized I need to KEEP STIRRING .. not leave and stir every 1/2 hour. So, jumped in and stirred ..

Currently have heavy mashed potatoes and stir stick will stand alone in it. Grateful for friend with strong arm willing to help stir, LOL!

ETA: links to some tadelakt images
http://ecobrooklyn.com/tadelakt-moroccan-plaster-technique/
http://www.tadelaktetbois.fr/hammam-et-spa/realisations-de-hammams-en-tadelakt/
http://www.wilhelm-weiss.com/home/arbeiten/kalk/tadelakt/tadelakt.html

 

[MzMolly65]

HELP! I think I put it away too soon. My instructions say to take it to the hard stage and then wait a bit for it to soften again (beginning gel phase), then put it in an air tight container and let it "ripen" for 4 weeks.

I just checked the container and it's turned hard, so I'm thinking I put it in the container too soon. Have I wrecked it? Can I salvage it?

 

[green soap]

Perhaps you did not use enough water for a past like consistency?

For my liquid soap I use 800g water to dissolve the KOH needed to saponify 800g oils. The paste is well, pasty. Less water and it would be very dry. More water would make it more spreadable. I never let it ripen, I dilute it for liquid soap in a day or two, so not sure what effect ripening has.

Superfatting your soap makes neutralization unnecessary. You can zap test it, more accurate than pH strips.

Good luck! let us know how it goes.

 

[Lin]

Since the directions say to take it to the hard stage and then past that to gel, and its hard now but has not gelled yet, you could stick it back in the crock pot and heat it up until it just barely starts to gel and then remove it. Just a thought.

Typically with soap you nearly never ruin anything, almost everything can be salvaged in some way. So if you make a mistake that means you can't use it for the plastering, you can always use it for washing!