This whole vegan/non-vegan soap issue is one of the contributing factors in my decision not to sell my bar soap. I would never feel like I was selling my "best" soap unless it contained lard. That is my best soap. There is no comparison. And yes, I have tried many other hand made soaps that contain only vegetable based oils.
I made the sensitive skin bar (FKA "eczema bar")!
- Thread starter JayJay
- Start date
Help Support Soapmaking Forum:
Susie, then just sell your lard soap. If someone doesn't like it they will move on. Seriously, there are more folks that I've encountered that don't have a problem with it and most don't even read the ingredients. That is if you have the hankering to sell.
Suzie, obviously I am on board with this. I have to say that I am really greatful that I don't sell/have to defend my ingredients. People may have pre-conceived notions about animal fats, but what the heck, if they are getting them as gifts they can pretty much put up or shut up (although I am happy to jigger if there is an actual health thing involved, like scent allergies.)
I would hate it it I had to justify the ingredients that I like to use to buyers, and that I honestly think are the best after zillions of hours researching. That would be awful, and I don't have the patience for it.
I would hate it it I had to justify the ingredients that I like to use to buyers, and that I honestly think are the best after zillions of hours researching. That would be awful, and I don't have the patience for it.
I was opposed to lard, also. But other soapers (one of them was Lindy) told me give it a try. Another reason was my sister was getting it on her hands at work. (Long story about her job which I won't go into. ) Anyway, with in a short period of time, her hands had become extremely soft and looked great. So, I tried one small batch and fell in love with how wonderfully it softened and left my skin feeling so moist. I found I can use a much lower superfat with lard, too. Now I use it almost all of my recipes. I'll never stop using it. I even use it in lotions and creams now. I think it was IrishLass who suggested trying it in a lotion. But don't hold me to that because it was a long time ago and my memory isn't all that great. :roll: On a skin care forum, there was a discussion about using straight tallow on the skin and the reasons for it. It was an interesting discussion but I haven't gotten around to trying it in lotion. Someone mentioned that using animal fats was the ultimate green.
BTW, I wanted to address the comment about mango butter being astringent. You make it sound like mango butter is drying or irritating to the skin which isn't accurate. The term astringent just means it causes constriction of skin which is actually a benefit to some of us more mature soapers.
. It also means mango butter feels less greasy than compared to some other butters like cocoa and shea. It has great emolliency but I will agree that there is a possibility some people may be allergic to it and shouldn't use it. Of course, some people are allergic to coconut oil or cocoa butter or shea butter, etc. There is always going to be someone who is allergic to something. 
I have a mild allergy to shea because of the latex in it. I discussed this in a previous post so I don't feel like re-typing it. People who have latex allergy may or may not be able to use anything with shea butter in it.
I have extremely sensitive and dry skin and mango is one of my favorite butters. Babassu is another "dry" oil which I use in my facial bar recipe along with another "astringent" oil. IMO, it's the best soap recipe I've ever formulated. It's not drying or irritating at all even though I'm using "astringent" ingredients. I don't think all people need to avoid an "astringent fat" if they have sensitive skin. Perhaps some people may have to but other people wouldn't. Skin sensitivity has many different causes. I would recommend a patch test for anyone who isn't sure about any new product.
eta: I forgot to mention - both lard and tallow are similar to human sebum. I'll have to look for the info about it and post the links.
BTW, I wanted to address the comment about mango butter being astringent. You make it sound like mango butter is drying or irritating to the skin which isn't accurate. The term astringent just means it causes constriction of skin which is actually a benefit to some of us more mature soapers.
. It also means mango butter feels less greasy than compared to some other butters like cocoa and shea. It has great emolliency but I will agree that there is a possibility some people may be allergic to it and shouldn't use it. Of course, some people are allergic to coconut oil or cocoa butter or shea butter, etc. There is always going to be someone who is allergic to something. I have a mild allergy to shea because of the latex in it. I discussed this in a previous post so I don't feel like re-typing it. People who have latex allergy may or may not be able to use anything with shea butter in it. I have extremely sensitive and dry skin and mango is one of my favorite butters. Babassu is another "dry" oil which I use in my facial bar recipe along with another "astringent" oil. IMO, it's the best soap recipe I've ever formulated. It's not drying or irritating at all even though I'm using "astringent" ingredients. I don't think all people need to avoid an "astringent fat" if they have sensitive skin. Perhaps some people may have to but other people wouldn't. Skin sensitivity has many different causes. I would recommend a patch test for anyone who isn't sure about any new product.
eta: I forgot to mention - both lard and tallow are similar to human sebum. I'll have to look for the info about it and post the links.
Last edited:
Hazel, v interesting post, especially for us mature types, I am 52. Now I have to go buy Babassu, **** it.
people with sensitive skin are very likely to be irritated by astringent ingredients (mango butter being one of the very common irritants to people with sensitive skin). obviously not everyone with sensitive skin will be irritated by all astringent ingredients. but its a good bet that a number of people will be.
this thread is not about a normal bar, its about a bar for people with sensitive skin, so why include something that increases the likelihood of irritation? you might be ok with mango butter, but i know a number of people who cant use it. its not drying. its a wonderful butter that soaks in beautifully and is not greasy, but its quite irritating to my skin. i would love to use it because its the nicest of all the butters.
there is a big difference between drying and irritating. drying oils can be fixed by using lotion. irritants need to be washed off before the irritation can go away.
this thread is not about a normal bar, its about a bar for people with sensitive skin, so why include something that increases the likelihood of irritation? you might be ok with mango butter, but i know a number of people who cant use it. its not drying. its a wonderful butter that soaks in beautifully and is not greasy, but its quite irritating to my skin. i would love to use it because its the nicest of all the butters.
there is a big difference between drying and irritating. drying oils can be fixed by using lotion. irritants need to be washed off before the irritation can go away.
I live to enable. Bwahahahaha! :twisted:
Just remember Babassu is similar in properties to coconut oil so you don't want to use a large percentage. It's actually more cleansing than CO so I have to use a slightly lower percentage than it. I learned this the hard way.
I love Babassu in soap! It's expensive but worth the money. Plus it helps to cut the greasiness in shea if you don't want to use isopropyl myristate. again eta: This sentence seemed a little unclear. I have added babassu into whipped shea which turned out really nice. However, it makes the shea much heavier so it doesn't stay whipped.
eta:
jnl - I saw your post after I responded to not_ally's comment. I was just about to log off because I have to get to bed. I really want to answer your comment but I don't have time to explain it now. I'll be back tomorrow to reply.
Just remember Babassu is similar in properties to coconut oil so you don't want to use a large percentage. It's actually more cleansing than CO so I have to use a slightly lower percentage than it. I learned this the hard way.
I love Babassu in soap! It's expensive but worth the money. Plus it helps to cut the greasiness in shea if you don't want to use isopropyl myristate. again eta: This sentence seemed a little unclear. I have added babassu into whipped shea which turned out really nice. However, it makes the shea much heavier so it doesn't stay whipped.
eta:
jnl - I saw your post after I responded to not_ally's comment. I was just about to log off because I have to get to bed. I really want to answer your comment but I don't have time to explain it now. I'll be back tomorrow to reply.
Last edited:
Except that soap is, by definition, a wash off product.
if you have ever used a soap that has something that irritates your skin, you would know that you have to wash with a different soap to get rid of the irritation
usually, i find it takes a couple washings to get rid of the residue of an irritating soap
our skin absorbs things very fast
usually, i find it takes a couple washings to get rid of the residue of an irritating soap
our skin absorbs things very fast
Hazel, I am OCD, I am going to buy at least a little bit of Babassu to test. Also, sadly, I am somewhat a fan of enabling. It gives us a reason to save, budget and experiment, all of those are good things.
Now how to figure out how Babassu will work with the other oils I usually, that is the fun part. How sad is it that I think knock out tests are fun? I am definitely a soap geek.
Now how to figure out how Babassu will work with the other oils I usually, that is the fun part. How sad is it that I think knock out tests are fun? I am definitely a soap geek.
Last edited:
Dorymae
Well-Known Member
Jnl I have to ask where, or what studies you are getting your information from. I have never heard of mango butter being a skin irritant , neither have I ever heard of tea tree being an irritant.
So I did a little checking, and I found mango butter although it can cause irritation in people who are sensitive to it is NOT considered a skin irritant at all.
Likewise with tea tree oil. Actually tea tree oil can reduce allergic skin reaction.
Info on mango butter straight off the MSDS sheet and info about tea tree from medicinenet.com.
So where are you seeing these are skin irritants?
If you are simply noting that these things are irritants to you and some people you know that is fine, but to make huge generalizations that because you have sensitive skin and they irritate you then they must irritate all with sensitive skin, you have to back that up.
So I did a little checking, and I found mango butter although it can cause irritation in people who are sensitive to it is NOT considered a skin irritant at all.
Likewise with tea tree oil. Actually tea tree oil can reduce allergic skin reaction.
Info on mango butter straight off the MSDS sheet and info about tea tree from medicinenet.com.
So where are you seeing these are skin irritants?
If you are simply noting that these things are irritants to you and some people you know that is fine, but to make huge generalizations that because you have sensitive skin and they irritate you then they must irritate all with sensitive skin, you have to back that up.
Last edited:
And, if you HP the lard soap and then superfat after gel with a vegetable oil, then the animal fat is no more. Myself, I'm on the side that considers using animal fat the most ethical way of making soap and much prefer it to be smeared on my skin than vegetable oils.
I'm really liking my lard soaps and they are not even fully cured yet.
Mango is a wonderful, luscious, emollient fat that I adore in my soap - and I have never once seen anyone call it an irritant. I like it far better than I do shea. And lard. I adore lard in my soap. As EG said, I consider the lard to be something that would be wasted and don't want to see that waste. My lard comes from my neighbor across the lane up in Maine, from hogs that are raised properly, kindly, who live good piggie lives before they are turned into meat for us. I've never used commercial lard in my products.
Hazel, approx. how much Babassu do you use? I know it depend on the other oils, but is there a cutoff limit (eg, like castor, where people always say not to exceed 5% ?) I was thinking maybe maxing out at 20% or so but since I have never used it, that may be way off.
Ann, I like mango too, probably my favorite butter. Although I also like using a little kokum if I want to make things harder and more moisturizing with just a little bit of butter and not too much greasiness.
Ann, I like mango too, probably my favorite butter. Although I also like using a little kokum if I want to make things harder and more moisturizing with just a little bit of butter and not too much greasiness.
Last edited:
Oh yes, I love kokum, and babassu. I've used both of them at up to 20%, only because that's what I played with, haven't gone higher - they're both a bit pricey, so I use them judiciously.
I'm careful with expensive oils/butters, too. It nothing else it makes me feel virtuous to use them judiciously (plus that seems how they *should* be used in the balance.) And there are so many great oils that are not expensive. Yes, pounding the lard and tallow drum again. Thanks for the advice, Ann!
I have used a soap which irritated my skin. Lots of lukewarm water for rinsing is what works best. Soap is a surfactant. It is not necessary to use another soap to wash off the first soap. Also, even after the soap is rinsed off, the irritation remained and it took a little while for my skin to return to normal.
Also, our skin doesn’t absorb things very fast. Skin is a protective barrier and does a very efficient job of keeping things out. I don’t have time to discuss skin physiology so I recommend you research it.
I understand this topic isn’t about a “normal” bar. But you’re arbitrarily stating specific things are irritants when they’re not or at least not for all people. Based on what you’ve said, the logic behind your statement is - I used mango, it irritated my skin; therefore, mango butter is an irritant for people with sensitive skin and no one should use it. I googled earlier trying to find articles or something which stated mango butter was an irritant for people with sensitive skin. I couldn’t find anything. However, I’d be happy to read about it if you can post a link or links to articles which discuss it. BTW, I’m not going to discuss tea tree oil because I haven’t used it.
Anyway, you keep saying astringent like it’s a bad thing. It may not be good for some people but it’s not bad for other people. Also, I want to point out that something may be astringent but not drying or irritating. I include drying and irritating together since I’ve had products which so dried out my skin that my skin was irritated. However, dryness doesn’t always lead to irritation. Most of my problems when dryness leads to irritation is during extremely cold weather. Cold weather, furnace running all the time and dry air in the house - sucks the moisture right out of me.
I have sensitive skin and I’ve never had a problem with any of the “astringent” oils. Perhaps some people would if they have a sensitivity/allergy to an oil but it wouldn’t be from the astringent property.
Now if you want to talk about astringents/toners, then yes; some of those can be drying or irritating for people with sensitive skin. Toners are different from oils since very few have any ingredient in them for emolliency. They are created to constrict and tighten skin and pores so someone with dry skin might find the feeling uncomfortable. I haven’t used a toner in several years but I remember a couple in the past which did cause irritation for me.
I’m trying not to make generalizations. As I mentioned yesterday, there is always going to be someone who cannot tolerate an ingredient. An oil that is great for one person might be terrible for someone else. But overall, most people with sensitive, dry skin can handle products with astringent oils because of the triglycerides in them.
@ not_ally and JayJay -
While hunting for info on mango, I looked on Summer Bee Meadow’s oil property list. I think you’ll find the info on Babassu interesting.
http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/properties-soapmaking-oils
If I was using only water, then I would use Babassu 19% up to 25%. I could use slightly more 26% and a little higher if I was using buttermilk. I doubt I’d use 30% since it is more drying than coconut and I rarely use buttermilk as all of the liquid. I’m lazy and do the split method – enough water for the lye and the rest of the liquid is buttermilk. I should mention that I only use Babassu in facial soap recipes and I don't make large batches. That's why I'm willing to use a higher percentage.
Plus as Ann already mentioned, it is more expensive and I like her recommendation of 20%. I vary Babassu’s percentage because it depends on the time of year. During the summer, I can tolerate a higher percentage and I’ve found Babassu is awesome for the pores.
I want to apologize to JayJay for the topic hijack. I hope I didn’t upset you.
Again, it’s late and I need to log off. If what I’ve written isn’t clear, I’ll try to clarify my remarks tomorrow.
Also, our skin doesn’t absorb things very fast. Skin is a protective barrier and does a very efficient job of keeping things out. I don’t have time to discuss skin physiology so I recommend you research it.
I understand this topic isn’t about a “normal” bar. But you’re arbitrarily stating specific things are irritants when they’re not or at least not for all people. Based on what you’ve said, the logic behind your statement is - I used mango, it irritated my skin; therefore, mango butter is an irritant for people with sensitive skin and no one should use it. I googled earlier trying to find articles or something which stated mango butter was an irritant for people with sensitive skin. I couldn’t find anything. However, I’d be happy to read about it if you can post a link or links to articles which discuss it. BTW, I’m not going to discuss tea tree oil because I haven’t used it.
Anyway, you keep saying astringent like it’s a bad thing. It may not be good for some people but it’s not bad for other people. Also, I want to point out that something may be astringent but not drying or irritating. I include drying and irritating together since I’ve had products which so dried out my skin that my skin was irritated. However, dryness doesn’t always lead to irritation. Most of my problems when dryness leads to irritation is during extremely cold weather. Cold weather, furnace running all the time and dry air in the house - sucks the moisture right out of me.
I have sensitive skin and I’ve never had a problem with any of the “astringent” oils. Perhaps some people would if they have a sensitivity/allergy to an oil but it wouldn’t be from the astringent property.
Now if you want to talk about astringents/toners, then yes; some of those can be drying or irritating for people with sensitive skin. Toners are different from oils since very few have any ingredient in them for emolliency. They are created to constrict and tighten skin and pores so someone with dry skin might find the feeling uncomfortable. I haven’t used a toner in several years but I remember a couple in the past which did cause irritation for me.
I’m trying not to make generalizations. As I mentioned yesterday, there is always going to be someone who cannot tolerate an ingredient. An oil that is great for one person might be terrible for someone else. But overall, most people with sensitive, dry skin can handle products with astringent oils because of the triglycerides in them.
@ not_ally and JayJay -
While hunting for info on mango, I looked on Summer Bee Meadow’s oil property list. I think you’ll find the info on Babassu interesting.
http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/properties-soapmaking-oils
If I was using only water, then I would use Babassu 19% up to 25%. I could use slightly more 26% and a little higher if I was using buttermilk. I doubt I’d use 30% since it is more drying than coconut and I rarely use buttermilk as all of the liquid. I’m lazy and do the split method – enough water for the lye and the rest of the liquid is buttermilk. I should mention that I only use Babassu in facial soap recipes and I don't make large batches. That's why I'm willing to use a higher percentage.
Plus as Ann already mentioned, it is more expensive and I like her recommendation of 20%. I vary Babassu’s percentage because it depends on the time of year. During the summer, I can tolerate a higher percentage and I’ve found Babassu is awesome for the pores.
I want to apologize to JayJay for the topic hijack. I hope I didn’t upset you.
Again, it’s late and I need to log off. If what I’ve written isn’t clear, I’ll try to clarify my remarks tomorrow.
@ not_ally and JayJay -
While hunting for info on mango, I looked on Summer Bee Meadow’s oil property list. I think you’ll find the info on Babassu interesting.
http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/properties-soapmaking-oils
If I was using only water, then I would use Babassu 19% up to 25%. I could use slightly more 26% and a little higher if I was using buttermilk. I doubt I’d use 30% since it is more drying than coconut and I rarely use buttermilk as all of the liquid. I’m lazy and do the split method – enough water for the lye and the rest of the liquid is buttermilk. I should mention that I only use Babassu in facial soap recipes and I don't make large batches. That's why I'm willing to use a higher percentage.
Plus as Ann already mentioned, it is more expensive and I like her recommendation of 20%. I vary Babassu’s percentage because it depends on the time of year. During the summer, I can tolerate a higher percentage and I’ve found Babassu is awesome for the pores.
I want to apologize to JayJay for the topic hijack. I hope I didn’t upset you.
Again, it’s late and I need to log off. If what I’ve written isn’t clear, I’ll try to clarify my remarks tomorrow.
I don't mind the debate at all! In fact, I think that is doing wonders for my soaping education.
Thank you for the link! I can't wait to read through it all!
I just ordered some mango butter a few days ago. I will definitely put it in my first face soap. I need a good toning.
and I am currently using a high priced facial line. I'm not convinced that it's doing me any good. I don't have any babassu oil on hand but I can fix that.
I just had a lightbulb moment when I read this! I didn't even consider saving some batter and HP'ing it!!!
Ok...hijacking this for a sec...will the HP soap have the same properties/feel as the CP soap once the CP soap is cured 8 weeks?
Excited about this prospect!
No, and HP requires 4-6 weeks cure(or more), same as CP.
Similar threads
