I could use a little help with my CP-soap.

[dixiedragon]

I ran your recipe through the lye calculator - it looks fine. In the future, though, always run the recipe through a lye calculator!

I think the orange blobs are probably either honey, milk or coconut milk. these ingredients can react oddly with lye, and they can get hot and carmelize. I'm not sure if the amount of milk you added is okay - I'm confused because your recipe says "powdered milk" then you mentioned "coconut milk"? What kind of milk was your powdered milk.

 

[Captain_Potbelly]

Hello again everyone and thank you for helping me out. :wave:

I've been soaping alot since the last time i checked in here and i'm back with a whole bunch of new knowledge but also an equal amount of questions...

Let's start out here:
So, as anyone might be able to figure out there has been alot of experiments. I mean ALOT. First of all: I'm so inpatient at times that i make myself angry. I want to try an additive, so i try it. In a new recipe. In a new mold. With a new fragrance. And four new colours. I'll get to that in a while.

First question: I decided to try a soap made of 100% coconut (20% overfat). I also wanted to give swirling a go. The batter turned quite thick (no surprise there) but i managed to handle it pretty well. It turned out far better than expected and i was kind of happy with it. I made 1000g and used blue aquamarine and black iron oxide.

So, i decided to do another batch. This time i had only 915 grams of coconut oil. I used the same EO, but chromium green for color. I poured it in the same mold as the first one and covered it with the same lid as the first one.
This time i only blended until it emulsified, because it got so thick the last time i figured it would buy me some extra time.

I went to unmold it about 3-4h later - wise from the first one, but i couldn't. I noticed that the parts with the darkest green looked a bit grainy/bubbly.
I managed to unmold it eventually, but i couldn't really cut it. As i was trying i could basically see the soda ash appear before my eyes. It's really mean and it's deep.

I could cut it about 1,5 days later. Today it's hard as a brick. The soda ash is so deep i can't get it off even with cutting.

Did i not mix properly? Oils and lye were combined at approx. the same temperatures.

The first batch that i was so happy with - noticed today that it stains. The lather is sligthly dark, it doesn't stain cloths but it does stain the sink.

I have alot more of questions and thoughts, but i think i'll stop here for now.

Thanks in advance!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Pictures will help a great deal. What you describe as bubbly and grainy might be pictured totally different by someone else, so it is better to see it ourselves.

When you used the lower amount of co, did you also lower the lye to keep the same superfat level?

Eta - but as you seem to gather, it's harder to troubleshoot when you change so many different variables in one go!

 

[Susie]

You tried to unmold too soon. I give mine at least 18-24 hours.

And you are changing way too many things at once. But you seem determined to do that despite repeated warnings not to. So, what exactly did you expect?

 

[CaraBou]

I have not made a 100% CO soap but I've read that they can get hard very quickly, and that thick ash can form on them (especially when air can contact the soap, like it can in a mold that is covered but is not filled to the brim with batter). So what you are experiencing may be very normal. Pure CO soaps can also get quite hot, which may have caused the grainy/bubbly texture. Pics will help tell. I should ask, did you use salt in your soap?

There is also a chance that your fragrance caused the troubles, especially the ash. You mentioned you thought you were buying EOs, but that they didn't seem quite right to you. That could mean they are fragrance oils (as marilynmac mentioned), and/or they may have other additives that play devil with your soap.

Looking forward to seeing your pics. I bet they will be lovely soaps even with the issues you mentioned. Even if you are not confident about them, don't throw this batch out without giving people here a chance to figure out whether you have a serious issue or not. Given everything you've said, chances are they will be fine and bring you much pleasure in the future

 

[JustBeachy]

I love your adventurous spirit, but I have to agree with the others. Too many variables, all at once, will cloud the issue and just leave you with more questions than answers.

I tend to experiment a lot with soaps, and now with lotions and hair products. My process is to first find one recipe that I know works, and use it as a base. Then I can change one thing in the recipe, mix it and then compare it to my "control" recipe. Then I can see the differences, if any, and recreate the effect if I like the results. At times, I may have to make the same batch multiple times to find the reason something went wrong.

For example, your soda ash question. You mention you changed the amount of CO, did you also adjust the lye concentration? Was the superfat the same? Did you use the same mold, if so the levels in the mold were different? Were either batch covered during the molding stage? How did you mix in the green? Just way too many variables, in my opinion.

Don't lose the inquisitive nature, just learn to restrain it enough, to find a recipe/process that you like. I agree with CaraBou, it's amazing how much stuff can go wrong with soap, yet it's still a functional product. Besides if you don't throw it away, you can see how it cures over time.

 

[marilynmac]

I had to ask myself WHY am I changing things? It is because I want to find out what effect this different oil/additive has on the soap. Then I figured out that if I changed 2 oils/additives, I didn't know which oil/additive made what change to the soap, and I wasn't getting anywhere.

 

[Captain_Potbelly]

Let me explain myself...

Hello again!

First i feel like I need to clarify:

The first part of my text where i described my adventure testing ALL the new stuff at once wasn't the case with the coconut soap.

My chaos-soap (i call it that) has cured for 8 days and it's still not possible to cut it. I should say that i learned my lesson. I've made 2 soaps after that one and i've only added 1 new thing to each of them. Let me repeat: one.

Kind of proud.

Since i do now know how to quote more than one at the time i'll just keep answering everyone in different posts...

 

[JustBeachy]

Hello again!

First i feel like I need to clarify:

The first part of my text where i described my adventure testing ALL the new stuff at once wasn't the case with the coconut soap.

My chaos-soap (i call it that) has cured for 8 days and it's still not possible to cut it. I should say that i learned my lesson. I've made 2 soaps after that one and i've only added 1 new thing to each of them. Let me repeat: one.

Kind of proud.

Since i do now know how to quote more than one at the time i'll just keep answering everyone in different posts...

Good deal, you should be proud.

See the little "button" next to the quote button? The one with the little " on it. Hit that on each post you want to multi quote, then on the last one, hit quote. It will bring up all of the posts you want to respond on. Just respond to the bottom of each quote, without messing up the syntax of the the quote.

Hope that helps.

 

[Captain_Potbelly]

Pictures will help a great deal. What you describe as bubbly and grainy might be pictured totally different by someone else, so it is better to see it ourselves.

When you used the lower amount of co, did you also lower the lye to keep the same superfat level?

Eta - but as you seem to gather, it's harder to troubleshoot when you change so many different variables in one go!

You tried to unmold too soon. I give mine at least 18-24 hours.

And you are changing way too many things at once. But you seem determined to do that despite repeated warnings not to. So, what exactly did you expect?

I have not made a 100% CO soap but I've read that they can get hard very quickly, and that thick ash can form on them (especially when air can contact the soap, like it can in a mold that is covered but is not filled to the brim with batter). So what you are experiencing may be very normal. Pure CO soaps can also get quite hot, which may have caused the grainy/bubbly texture. Pics will help tell. I should ask, did you use salt in your soap?

There is also a chance that your fragrance caused the troubles, especially the ash. You mentioned you thought you were buying EOs, but that they didn't seem quite right to you. That could mean they are fragrance oils (as marilynmac mentioned), and/or they may have other additives that play devil with your soap.

Looking forward to seeing your pics. I bet they will be lovely soaps even with the issues you mentioned. Even if you are not confident about them, don't throw this batch out without giving people here a chance to figure out whether you have a serious issue or not. Given everything you've said, chances are they will be fine and bring you much pleasure in the future

I love your adventurous spirit, but I have to agree with the others. Too many variables, all at once, will cloud the issue and just leave you with more questions than answers.

I tend to experiment a lot with soaps, and now with lotions and hair products. My process is to first find one recipe that I know works, and use it as a base. Then I can change one thing in the recipe, mix it and then compare it to my "control" recipe. Then I can see the differences, if any, and recreate the effect if I like the results. At times, I may have to make the same batch multiple times to find the reason something went wrong.

For example, your soda ash question. You mention you changed the amount of CO, did you also adjust the lye concentration? Was the superfat the same? Did you use the same mold, if so the levels in the mold were different? Were either batch covered during the molding stage? How did you mix in the green? Just way too many variables, in my opinion.

Don't lose the inquisitive nature, just learn to restrain it enough, to find a recipe/process that you like. I agree with CaraBou, it's amazing how much stuff can go wrong with soap, yet it's still a functional product. Besides if you don't throw it away, you can see how it cures over time.

Well what do you know, i figured it out!

In my coconut soap i recalculated the recipe so that the superfat would be the same. The only thing that I changed in the CO soap (except the amount of oil and lye) were the colours. I used chromium green instead of ultramarine and iron oxide. Since my first batch went better than i had expected, i did not want to mess things up.

Oh, i had completely missed the part about coconut soap being prone to soda ash. I did not however use any salt.

I used the same EO in both soaps, which i have tried out before and know it works well. I used the same mold, with the same kind of lining and the same lid. The levels in the mold were in fact different, since i had a hard time getting everything in the mold with the green batch it got a bit thinner, if you understand? I had a hard time because the batter didn't behave as i had expected.
First batch: 1000 grams (oils) right in to the mold.
Second batch: about 800 grams (oils) in to the same mold and the rest into a smaller one.

... I'll post my pictures in the next post. I'm struggling here.

 

[Captain_Potbelly]

Good deal, you should be proud.

See the little "button" next to the quote button? The one with the little " on it. Hit that on each post you want to multi quote, then on the last one, hit quote. It will bring up all of the posts you want to respond on. Just respond to the bottom of each quote, without messing up the syntax of the the quote.

Hope that helps.

Thank you very much!

Now pictures.

First there's the mold with my first batch, what it looked like straight out of cutting and then what it looked like after shaving. Unfortunately there are some holes, since it was very thick when i attempted my swirl. But it's ok!

Same again with the green in the mold. Then there's a picture of the bubbly stuff. Next there's a picture of a round soap - just to show that this started showing up before my eyes while i was cutting.
Next picture is what it looked like after a couple of days.

I've been "shaving" this one too, it looks better, but it's still ashy. It's deep.

 

[JustBeachy]

Yeah, that's some doozie of a ash on the green. haha.

How are you processing in the mold? Insulated, Freezer? Are you covering with Saran Wrap? I just did an experiment last weekend with some batches. The uncovered, insulated soap ashed over just about as bad as your green.

Oh, by the way, those are some good looking swirls.

 

[Captain_Potbelly]

Yeah, that's some doozie of a ash on the green. haha.

How are you processing in the mold? Insulated, Freezer? Are you covering with Saran Wrap? I just did an experiment last weekend with some batches. The uncovered, insulated soap ashed over just about as bad as your green.

Oh, by the way, those are some good looking swirls.

Oh yes, it's mean.

I'm not 100% sure i understand your question. I do not cover with Saran Wrap, i find it too hard. I just mess up the surface of the soap. I use towels and when possible a lid. I'm wondering if my room temperature can have something to do with all this, because i've been struggling with ash more and more lately. My kitchen is about 60 F. I found that when i use deep molds and completely cover them with lids i get the least amount of soda ash. Last soap i made i used old milk cartons with a screw cap. Screwed on the cap and covered with lid. No ash at all.

I think i might have been a wee bit too serious there because one of the two got a bit over heated, lost all scent and got some weird looking (fragrance?) blobs on one side. Cut them off, Ph-tested, smiled alot, everything's ok!

 

[JustBeachy]

Oh yes, it's mean.

I'm not 100% sure i understand your question. I do not cover with Saran Wrap, i find it too hard. I just mess up the surface of the soap. I use towels and when possible a lid. I'm wondering if my room temperature can have something to do with all this, because i've been struggling with ash more and more lately. My kitchen is about 60 F. I found that when i use deep molds and completely cover them with lids i get the least amount of soda ash. Last soap i made i used old milk cartons with a screw cap. Screwed on the cap and covered with lid. No ash at all.

I think i might have been a wee bit too serious there because one of the two got a bit over heated, lost all scent and got some weird looking (fragrance?) blobs on one side. Cut them off, Ph-tested, smiled alot, everything's ok!

While I would say it was far from being the definitive experiment on the creation of soda ash, this experiment did lend some credence to the fact that uncovered soap, any air allowed, tends to ash.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=50006

Since you're using a flat mold, instead of loaf molds, I can see where it might be a problem without messing with your swirl. Only thing I could suggest is, to try to get the saran wrap tight on one side of the mold, maybe even taped down, then pull it tight and bring it down over the mold. Then tape it down to the other side before it can droop.

I use mainly just loaf molds and don't run into that problem, but I bet someone on here uses those molds and might chime in with some advice. On a different note, The Freezer tests, didn't get any ash, covered or uncovered. Might be worth a try for you.

 

[Captain_Potbelly]

So... i'm sitting here and planning my next soapy adventure and since i just recieved a lecture i thought i should maybe ask for some opinions before i go and ruin a new batch.

I'm experimenting with the soapcalc lye calculator, and i'd really like to make a soap with cocoa butter. I kept changing the numbers back and forth and then i hit some kind of (imaginary?) sweet spot.

As far as i can tell it's showing me some pretty good numbers, but i'm a bit worried about the high percentage of hard oils. What do you think about this recipe?

Coconut oil 25%
Palm oil 20%
Cocoa butter 15%
Shea butter 10%
Olive oil 25%
Castor oil 5%

I realize that it's going to move really fast. What i'm really wondering here:
Is it a bad idea?

 

[Captain_Potbelly]

While I would say it was far from being the definitive experiment on the creation of soda ash, this experiment did lend some credence to the fact that uncovered soap, any air allowed, tends to ash.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=50006

Since you're using a flat mold, instead of loaf molds, I can see where it might be a problem without messing with your swirl. Only thing I could suggest is, to try to get the saran wrap tight on one side of the mold, maybe even taped down, then pull it tight and bring it down over the mold. Then tape it down to the other side before it can droop.

I use mainly just loaf molds and don't run into that problem, but I bet someone on here uses those molds and might chime in with some advice. On a different note, The Freezer tests, didn't get any ash, covered or uncovered. Might be worth a try for you.

I'm using loaf molds too, haven't thought it much but since a smaller surface of the soap gets in contact with the air it should reduce the amouth of ash.

I've just recently started making notes about the what soap went into what mold. Didn't think this made any difference before, but i'm starting to realize that now.

What do you mean with the freezer test? Did you put the fresh soap in the freezer? Right after pouring? For how long?

Edit: Sorry, didn't see the link you posted first. Nevermind the dumb questions and thanks alot!

 

[JustBeachy]

I'm using loaf molds too, haven't thought it much but since a smaller surface of the soap gets in contact with the air it should reduce the amouth of ash.

I've just recently started making notes about the what soap went into what mold. Didn't think this made any difference before, but i'm starting to realize that now.

What do you mean with the freezer test? Did you put the fresh soap in the freezer? Right after pouring? For how long?

Yeah, some people like to prevent the "gel" stage. So they put the soap directly into the freezer or fridge after pouring. I left my test soap in the Freezer for 3 hours then pulled it out and let it set. No ash on the covered or uncovered pours.

Notes are one of the most important parts, in my opinion, of the entire soaping process. A well documented recipe, process, and evaluation can save you tons of time and money by preventing repeating mistakes.

 

[Susie]

So... i'm sitting here and planning my next soapy adventure and since i just recieved a lecture i thought i should maybe ask for some opinions before i go and ruin a new batch.

I'm experimenting with the soapcalc lye calculator, and i'd really like to make a soap with cocoa butter. I kept changing the numbers back and forth and then i hit some kind of (imaginary?) sweet spot.

As far as i can tell it's showing me some pretty good numbers, but i'm a bit worried about the high percentage of hard oils. What do you think about this recipe?

Coconut oil 25%
Palm oil 20%
Cocoa butter 15%
Shea butter 10%
Olive oil 25%
Castor oil 5%

I realize that it's going to move really fast. What i'm really wondering here:
Is it a bad idea?

Thank you for clarifying what you changed, etc. My apologies for misunderstanding. Let's delve into the soda ash issue first, because we need to figure out what went wrong with that before changing the basic recipe. What kind of water are you using? Distilled, tap water, filtered tap water? I am not sure this is the cause, but let's rule out one thing at the time.

What JustBeachy said about the plastic wrap is true. It should, theoretically at least, help a great deal with soda ash. I think most people lightly spray the top with 91% alcohol before laying the plastic wrap down. Just be sure to secure the one edge first and lay it down from that edge across the top of the soap to prevent air bubbles. You might want to make a slightly smaller batch so that the soap does not come all the way to the top of the mold. This will help prevent the soap from mashing against a lid as it goes through gel. Had this happen to me this week. Learned my lesson. And those are gorgeous swirls, so we don't want to mess them up!(I have no artistic ability, so I am living vicariously through everyone's pictures.)

Now, onto the new recipe. This is one of those you are changing too many variables at once. If I were you, I would do the following:

CO- 20%(you might find more drying to your skin)
Castor oil-5%
Palm oil-40%
Olive oil-25%
Sugar-1 tablespoon PPO

Then, choose ONE butter. Butters can inhibit lather at higher concentrations. Use no more than 10% to start, then increase 5% at the time until you get a good idea of what effect that is going to have on your soap. When you figure that out, then swap to the other butter at 10% and repeat the increase. Decrease your palm oil whatever amount you increase the butter. I would add sugar to increase the bubbles, to help combat the butter. Print or write out the recipe, take really good notes on EVERYTHING. What EOs/colorants from which companies in which amounts, everything. Keep this in a binder, or import it into a folder on your computer. Make a batch tag with the name of the soap and the date made to keep with the batch until it is all gone. That way you can cross reference it in case you get DOS or something. Remember that sugar is a heating element. You need to watch it closely for a few hours, or stick it in the freezer/fridge to prevent volcano. That is what happened to my soap this last week. Too much heat with the sugar, so it started growing.

I would not try to get super fancy with the butter batches until you see how fast it is going to move. Getting a bubble free batch is the goal, so get it to emulsification before coloring, and then a very light trace before pouring into the mold. Then try whatever swirls and such, but have a plan and do it quickly before spraying and covering. Use the same EOs/FOs with each batch so as not to increase the number of variables.

Hope this helps!

 

[Captain_Potbelly]

Thank you for clarifying what you changed, etc. My apologies for misunderstanding. Let's delve into the soda ash issue first, because we need to figure out what went wrong with that before changing the basic recipe. What kind of water are you using? Distilled, tap water, filtered tap water? I am not sure this is the cause, but let's rule out one thing at the time.

What JustBeachy said about the plastic wrap is true. It should, theoretically at least, help a great deal with soda ash. I think most people lightly spray the top with 91% alcohol before laying the plastic wrap down. Just be sure to secure the one edge first and lay it down from that edge across the top of the soap to prevent air bubbles. You might want to make a slightly smaller batch so that the soap does not come all the way to the top of the mold. This will help prevent the soap from mashing against a lid as it goes through gel. Had this happen to me this week. Learned my lesson. And those are gorgeous swirls, so we don't want to mess them up!(I have no artistic ability, so I am living vicariously through everyone's pictures.)

Now, onto the new recipe. This is one of those you are changing too many variables at once. If I were you, I would do the following:

CO- 20%(you might find more drying to your skin)
Castor oil-5%
Palm oil-40%
Olive oil-25%
Sugar-1 tablespoon PPO

Then, choose ONE butter. Butters can inhibit lather at higher concentrations. Use no more than 10% to start, then increase 5% at the time until you get a good idea of what effect that is going to have on your soap. When you figure that out, then swap to the other butter at 10% and repeat the increase. Decrease your palm oil whatever amount you increase the butter. I would add sugar to increase the bubbles, to help combat the butter. Print or write out the recipe, take really good notes on EVERYTHING. What EOs/colorants from which companies in which amounts, everything. Keep this in a binder, or import it into a folder on your computer. Make a batch tag with the name of the soap and the date made to keep with the batch until it is all gone. That way you can cross reference it in case you get DOS or something. Remember that sugar is a heating element. You need to watch it closely for a few hours, or stick it in the freezer/fridge to prevent volcano. That is what happened to my soap this last week. Too much heat with the sugar, so it started growing.

I would not try to get super fancy with the butter batches until you see how fast it is going to move. Getting a bubble free batch is the goal, so get it to emulsification before coloring, and then a very light trace before pouring into the mold. Then try whatever swirls and such, but have a plan and do it quickly before spraying and covering. Use the same EOs/FOs with each batch so as not to increase the number of variables.

Hope this helps!

Hello and thank you very much! This was very helpful. Maybe that's my problem... Instead of sticking to a base recipe and changing little by little each time i create a new recipe from scratch. My god. That's kinda stupid.

I just create a recipe. Watch what happens, decide that that was a good/bad recipe and then move on to a completely new one. Haha, why...

I've used shea butter in nearly all my batches so far and different amounts, none of them have finished curing though. So... well. Shea butter is kind of expensive. I should contain myself. It's so hard though. I want to try everything and learn everything at once! I'm a very curious person and always eager to learn things. Fast.

For both of these batches i used tap water. The water here is really soft, so i figured that using distilled water wasn't really necessary.

I've tested spraying with alcohol and had some really bad experiences. I think i might have spritzed it on too early though. Maybe I should wait for a little while and not do it immediately after pouring. I'll practice putting Saran wrap on an empty mold.

I'm really trying to keep notes of everything but i missed a bunch in the beginning, i didn't realize how important it is to take notes of what mold, brand of EO and so on. I'm doing this now though.

I've seen recipes with sugar before but i'm a bit scared. I'm not sure i'm brave enough to handle a volcano just yet...

Thank you again! You're all so very nice here and i've learned alot thanks to you.

 

[Captain_Potbelly]

Oh god. I feel so stupid. When people have told me not to add so many things at once i somehow just thought this applied to additives like pigments, clays, EO/FO etc.

Haha. I don't even...