R, it is true, DeeAnna is one of the most useful contributors here. I *am* OCD, she is just flat out helpful in ways the rest of us cannot even imagine trying to be because of the combination of her science background and language/teaching skills. You haven't been around long enough to read one of her posts and and say "phew, that is how it works, yay." But I bet you will!
I am zapless,options?
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The assumption that cure is about moisture loss is a common one. Wrong, but common. But you just won't understand that until you get the actual experience of using your own soap that YOU have made, then weighed and recorded over the course of a few weeks. By the time the soap is 12 weeks old(unless it is high OO), you will then understand.
I am going to tell you also that DeeAnna is one of the very few people who can break down the science and math in a manner that actually makes sense to me. I, for one, am so very grateful for her graphs and experience. I just can't even fathom how much I would still be struggling to comprehend without her being so willing to share her knowledge. If you want to jump start your soaping knowledge, just search her name and go through her posts. It would be well worth your time and effort.
I am going to tell you also that DeeAnna is one of the very few people who can break down the science and math in a manner that actually makes sense to me. I, for one, am so very grateful for her graphs and experience. I just can't even fathom how much I would still be struggling to comprehend without her being so willing to share her knowledge. If you want to jump start your soaping knowledge, just search her name and go through her posts. It would be well worth your time and effort.
In retrospect, I think rparrny was just trying to make a joke about DeeAnna being OCD, I don't think she really thought that. I don't want to speak for her, though.
But please R, don't say "just sayin" anymore
But please R, don't say "just sayin" anymore
"...I hope you sell cause if your that OCD as a hobbiest...all I can say is...step away from the lye bottle......"
As the others have explained, no, I'm not OCD. (But I get the humor!!!) I'm an engineer and teacher with sometimes more curiosity than sense.
I can appreciate why one might use moisture loss as an indicator of cure, although I think the two -- moisture loss and cure -- are related but separate qualities. Tracking weight loss might work fine for most typical types of bath soap as a rough indicator of cure, but I don't think it always is a 100% surefire indicator of whether all types soap are sufficiently cured or not. High lard/tallow soaps, castile soaps, and salt soaps may be exceptions to this rule of thumb.
The reason why I say this is that other aspects of curing -- including the development of lather and increase in longevity -- are not directly related to simple moisture loss. These properties are developed through a crystallization process in which the soap molecules become arranged in a more structured and organized fashion. Commercial soaps (usually with little or no superfat) are hardened and the crystal structure is developed by mechanical milling and mixing. Handcrafted soap (with superfat) becomes more crystallized simply by being allowed enough time for that process to happen on its own.
As the others have explained, no, I'm not OCD. (But I get the humor!!!) I'm an engineer and teacher with sometimes more curiosity than sense.
I can appreciate why one might use moisture loss as an indicator of cure, although I think the two -- moisture loss and cure -- are related but separate qualities. Tracking weight loss might work fine for most typical types of bath soap as a rough indicator of cure, but I don't think it always is a 100% surefire indicator of whether all types soap are sufficiently cured or not. High lard/tallow soaps, castile soaps, and salt soaps may be exceptions to this rule of thumb.
The reason why I say this is that other aspects of curing -- including the development of lather and increase in longevity -- are not directly related to simple moisture loss. These properties are developed through a crystallization process in which the soap molecules become arranged in a more structured and organized fashion. Commercial soaps (usually with little or no superfat) are hardened and the crystal structure is developed by mechanical milling and mixing. Handcrafted soap (with superfat) becomes more crystallized simply by being allowed enough time for that process to happen on its own.
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That was my attempt at humor...sorry it was taken the wrong way...
The statement about the water discount/CPOP decreasing cure time wasn't mine...it was the statements of others I found trying to learn about this whole process. Since I don't have the experience to give me the answers I look for answers in those that do, hence the soap making industry videos. That is the reason I come to this forum and poke fun at Deeann for her impressive charts...after all, I do this for my friends and family and spend hours, sometimes days researching a question in my mind about... soap...I am certainly no one to seriously call anyone OCD. Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black...
That being said, with everything I have researched, along with Deeann's charts it makes perfect sense that water weight would influence cure and that castile and salt soaps would hold more water. I understand and respect that with your experience you believe otherwise, but my medically trained mind will always go with the numbers and the research until I get that experience...occupational hazard.
In the meantime, I will respectfully agree to disagree.
"...I hope you sell cause if your that OCD as a hobbiest...all I can say is...step away from the lye bottle......"
As the others have explained, no, I'm not OCD. (But I get the humor!!!) I'm an engineer and teacher with sometimes more curiosity than sense.
I can appreciate why one might use moisture loss as an indicator of cure, although I think the two -- moisture loss and cure -- are related but separate qualities. Tracking weight loss might work fine for most typical types of bath soap as a rough indicator of cure, but I don't think it always is a 100% surefire indicator of whether all types soap are sufficiently cured or not. High lard/tallow soaps, castile soaps, and salt soaps may be exceptions to this rule of thumb.
The reason why I say this is that other aspects of curing -- including the development of lather and increase in longevity -- are not directly related to simple moisture loss. These properties are developed through a crystallization process in which the soap molecules become arranged in a more structured and organized fashion. Commercial soaps (usually with little or no superfat) are hardened and the crystal structure is developed by mechanical milling and mixing. Handcrafted soap (with superfat) becomes more crystallized simply by being allowed enough time for that process to happen on its own.
Glad you got the humor...sometimes my attempts at quick wit leave me with foot in mouth disease :shock:.
Now may I pick your brain please...
Trying to research this I read that foam (I'm assuming foam and lather are interchangable, if I'm wrong please correct me) in castile soap is dependent on water, the less water the more foam. Is it possible that the crystallization occurs as a result of dehydration? Where can I learn more about it?
What does mechanical milling and mixing do differently that causes the soap to harden...and if this answer is too long to post reasonably could you please send me a link where I could learn about it.
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"Handcrafted soap (with superfat) becomes more crystallized simply by being allowed enough time for that process to happen on its own.
Kinda how I make my whipped honey. I don't whip it at all. I simply stir in 10-15% whipped honey into fresh honey and a couple months later,the new honey mimics the fine crystal structure of the whipped honey instead of turning hard and coarse. And you always have whipped honey to make more of the same, kind of like sourdough starter! Just let chemistry/time do the work for you, its a wonderful thing. )
Kinda how I make my whipped honey. I don't whip it at all. I simply stir in 10-15% whipped honey into fresh honey and a couple months later,the new honey mimics the fine crystal structure of the whipped honey instead of turning hard and coarse. And you always have whipped honey to make more of the same, kind of like sourdough starter! Just let chemistry/time do the work for you, its a wonderful thing. )
Milling is more than grating soap, contrary to what the YouTube videos lead you to believe. It is also using rollers to squeeze the soap between them to provide pressure. Here is a link to a pic of a miller:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...58806.html?spm=a2700.7724857.35.14.SV4d01&s=p
Also, most "French milled" is triple milled. So it is run through three times.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...58806.html?spm=a2700.7724857.35.14.SV4d01&s=p
Also, most "French milled" is triple milled. So it is run through three times.
Susie. I was wondering about this "French milling " thing. what exactly is the point anyways? is the soap that much better? Is it just a pressure thing, or shear forces? if so, can I just drive my tractor over my soap? lol How about running it thu a meat grinder?l
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Sorry, I know the bare basics of the process, not the details. I remember reading something on here a year or so ago...
I'm going to tell you flat out that there are no 101 primers on soap crystallization and how it is affected by aging, moisture content, and mechanical mixing. I know of nothing on the internet. You need to look at industry publications on soap making technology. Luis Spitz is one author/editor who has published information that one can (mostly) follow on given an undergrad level of comprehension of the subject.
"..foam (I'm assuming foam and lather are interchangable, if I'm wrong please correct me) in castile soap is dependent on water, the less water the more foam. Is it possible that the crystallization occurs as a result of dehydration?..."
I guess you could call it "foam" but why not call it "lather"? That's the common name used in the soap making industry, whether handcrafted or commercial.
What's going on with a high-oleic soap (castile) is not quite what you're saying. Let me see if I can explain....
If you look at what's inside a packet of Jello dessert (gelatin), it is a dry powder. The individual particles are solid.
If you add the amount of water called for in the directions to make the Jello, the result is still a solid by all the classic science-class definitions -- it can hold its own shape outside a container, it does not pour, etc. -- but this material obviously contains a LOT more water. This second solid form is a gel. The particles of gelatin have absorbed and contain substantial quantities of water within their structure. This is a water-in-gelatin mixture.
If you add, say, twice the water called for in the directions (just guessing the amount of water, hoping you'll go along with the general drift), you'll probably end up with a pourable fluid that is relatively thick. It's still a gel, but it is no longer a solid --it cannot hold its shape outside a container. There is more water than the gelatin can contain, so the water is beginning to surround and contain the gelatin particles. This mixture is a gelatin-in-water mixture.
If you add, say, four times the water, you'll probably end up with a relatively thin fluid that appears to all intents and purposes to be similar in viscosity to water. It is no longer a gel -- it's a true liquid solution.
Hold those concepts in mind, because the analogy also applies to soap....
A bar of soap (I'll leave liquid soap for another day) is like the Jello in the packet, more or less. It contains relatively little water, and it holds its own shape.
As you wet the bar, the solid soap on the surface of the bar absorbs water and goes through the stages of a water-in-soap gel, and then a soap-in-water gel, and finally a true liquid solution of soap and water. Air is beaten into the soap and water mixtures to form the lather. The most lather will be formed when the soap and water mixture is a soap-in-water gel or a true liquid solution and there is sufficient agitation and abrasion to mix the soap, air, and water thoroughly into a lather; otherwise the soap will not lather well.
The unusual thing that a high oleic soap can do is remain as a water-in-soap gel over a wide range of water content. This is the "slime" stage of a castile soap -- where the soap is absorbing water but still holding its solid shape. The only way to quickly get to the desired soap-in-water gel and true soap solution for this type of soap is to use plenty of water and mechanically break down the water-in-soap gel by adding agitation with a washcloth or bath scrubby.
Soap made with any one of the other fatty acids typically used in soap have a much narrower water content in which they are in that slimy water-in-soap gel stage. A soap made of a mixture of fatty acids will have a narrower band in which it's a water-in-soap gel, although as the oleic acid % gets higher and higher, you will see an increase in this tendency to remain a water-in-soap gel and thus the slime.
I gotta go ... I have company today. Hope this gets you started.
"..foam (I'm assuming foam and lather are interchangable, if I'm wrong please correct me) in castile soap is dependent on water, the less water the more foam. Is it possible that the crystallization occurs as a result of dehydration?..."
I guess you could call it "foam" but why not call it "lather"? That's the common name used in the soap making industry, whether handcrafted or commercial.
What's going on with a high-oleic soap (castile) is not quite what you're saying. Let me see if I can explain....
If you look at what's inside a packet of Jello dessert (gelatin), it is a dry powder. The individual particles are solid.
If you add the amount of water called for in the directions to make the Jello, the result is still a solid by all the classic science-class definitions -- it can hold its own shape outside a container, it does not pour, etc. -- but this material obviously contains a LOT more water. This second solid form is a gel. The particles of gelatin have absorbed and contain substantial quantities of water within their structure. This is a water-in-gelatin mixture.
If you add, say, twice the water called for in the directions (just guessing the amount of water, hoping you'll go along with the general drift), you'll probably end up with a pourable fluid that is relatively thick. It's still a gel, but it is no longer a solid --it cannot hold its shape outside a container. There is more water than the gelatin can contain, so the water is beginning to surround and contain the gelatin particles. This mixture is a gelatin-in-water mixture.
If you add, say, four times the water, you'll probably end up with a relatively thin fluid that appears to all intents and purposes to be similar in viscosity to water. It is no longer a gel -- it's a true liquid solution.
Hold those concepts in mind, because the analogy also applies to soap....
A bar of soap (I'll leave liquid soap for another day) is like the Jello in the packet, more or less. It contains relatively little water, and it holds its own shape.
As you wet the bar, the solid soap on the surface of the bar absorbs water and goes through the stages of a water-in-soap gel, and then a soap-in-water gel, and finally a true liquid solution of soap and water. Air is beaten into the soap and water mixtures to form the lather. The most lather will be formed when the soap and water mixture is a soap-in-water gel or a true liquid solution and there is sufficient agitation and abrasion to mix the soap, air, and water thoroughly into a lather; otherwise the soap will not lather well.
The unusual thing that a high oleic soap can do is remain as a water-in-soap gel over a wide range of water content. This is the "slime" stage of a castile soap -- where the soap is absorbing water but still holding its solid shape. The only way to quickly get to the desired soap-in-water gel and true soap solution for this type of soap is to use plenty of water and mechanically break down the water-in-soap gel by adding agitation with a washcloth or bath scrubby.
Soap made with any one of the other fatty acids typically used in soap have a much narrower water content in which they are in that slimy water-in-soap gel stage. A soap made of a mixture of fatty acids will have a narrower band in which it's a water-in-soap gel, although as the oleic acid % gets higher and higher, you will see an increase in this tendency to remain a water-in-soap gel and thus the slime.
I gotta go ... I have company today. Hope this gets you started.
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Amazing explanation thank you! I'll just bet your students love you...
So are you saying here that although water content does influence cure, oleic acid defies the norm of this process and will act as if it still has a high water content even though it may not?
Oh and the term "foam" was a quote from the source, since I don't see it used much here I wanted to make sure I was accurate in understanding what he meant.
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Tried the link but it didn't go through. What does the pressure do exactly? What does the grating do?
rparrny said:
Triple milling (genuine triple milling', that is....not the rebatching that we homemade soapers do), is impossible to do at home without some very expensive equipment. It is made from de-glycerinized soap pellets (the glycerin and other impurities are first salted out before being made into pellets) that are then pressed through steel rollers under high pressure 3 times to extract every last bit of moisture out of them and to also squeeze in different additives as they go through. If you click on the following link and scroll down to that heading "Purification and Finishing", you can read more about the process:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap
Triple milling is used by commercial soap-making companies to make a very dense, very hard bar of soap that lasts a very, very long time.
IrishLass
"...So are you saying here that although water content does influence cure, oleic acid defies the norm of this process and will act as if it still has a high water content even though it may not?..."
I don't get what you mean. "Defines the norm" of WHAT process?
I don't get what you mean. "Defines the norm" of WHAT process?
soapgirltami
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Cmzaha,
You know what, that is so good to know about the non gelled soap. I rarely use anything that would create a need for refrigerating or freezing, but whenever I do, I noticed it can take several days to be zapless. Thanks
You know what, that is so good to know about the non gelled soap. I rarely use anything that would create a need for refrigerating or freezing, but whenever I do, I noticed it can take several days to be zapless. Thanks
ngian
Well-Known Member
Another great explanation DeeAnna, thank you.
So on high Oleic soaps (eg. Castile) the water-in-soap gel characteristic is also responsible for needing the known very long cure time?
The specific fatty acid doesn't allow water to evaporate easily during curing time or slows down the "crystallization process in which the soap molecules become arranged in a more structured and organized fashion"?
I don't think a soap high in oleic acid is any slower to dry than any other soap. When I tracked the weight loss of my "superlye" castile soap, the data fit the same weight-loss trend I have seen in my non-olive oil soaps.
I do think (don't know -- just suspect) a soap with a high % of mono- and poly-unsaturated fatty acids will have a crystal structure that is slower to form and will never be as tidy as with a soap made with a high % of saturated fatty acids. Think of a bunch of pencils laying on a table -- you can push them together into a tightly packed layer. That's like soap with saturated fatty acids. Now think of a bunch of curved hot dogs or sausages tossed on the same table -- they are impossible to easily push together into a tidy package. You would need to spend time flipping them around so all the curves go the same way. That's more like soap with unsaturated fatty acids.
To be honest, I don't think the slime ever goes away in a castile, since oleic acid soap is not going to "change its spots" as the saying goes. What I do think happens is the cure period modifies how quickly the slime develops right when a person first uses the soap. The surface of a young castile bar will absorb water and form that oleic gel quickly so users feel the slick goo before they can get a good bubbly lather going. An older castile is slower to absorb water and thus slower to "slime up." The bather can get a good lather going and won't feel the slimy gel as much.
I do think (don't know -- just suspect) a soap with a high % of mono- and poly-unsaturated fatty acids will have a crystal structure that is slower to form and will never be as tidy as with a soap made with a high % of saturated fatty acids. Think of a bunch of pencils laying on a table -- you can push them together into a tightly packed layer. That's like soap with saturated fatty acids. Now think of a bunch of curved hot dogs or sausages tossed on the same table -- they are impossible to easily push together into a tidy package. You would need to spend time flipping them around so all the curves go the same way. That's more like soap with unsaturated fatty acids.
To be honest, I don't think the slime ever goes away in a castile, since oleic acid soap is not going to "change its spots" as the saying goes. What I do think happens is the cure period modifies how quickly the slime develops right when a person first uses the soap. The surface of a young castile bar will absorb water and form that oleic gel quickly so users feel the slick goo before they can get a good bubbly lather going. An older castile is slower to absorb water and thus slower to "slime up." The bather can get a good lather going and won't feel the slimy gel as much.
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