Hydrogenated Soybean Oil?

[Carly B]

Is this the same as soy wax? I was looking at the MMS website, and their soap recipe that
they use to test stuff is below.

The soap calc says 'Soy bean, fully hydrogenated (soy wax)." But if that's the case, then half the
oils are the soy wax. Would a soap that's half "wax" even be usable?

• 4 oz Coconut Oil or Palm Kernel Oil
• 4 oz Olive Oil
• 8 oz Hydrogenated Soybean Oil
• 2.2 oz Sodium Hydroxide, also known as NaOH or Caustic Soda
• 6 fl oz water

Soap Bar Quality	Range​	Your Recipe​
Hardness	29 - 54​	73​
Cleansing	12 - 22​	17​
Conditioning	44 - 69​	23​
Bubbly	14 - 46​	17​
Creamy	16 - 48​	56​
Iodine	41 - 70​	24​
INS	136 - 165​	186​

 

[DeeAnna]

Soy wax isn't a true wax. It's hydrogenated soybean oil. I suppose the suppliers named it "soy wax" because it's often used to make candles.

The degree of hydrogenation will make a difference -- you need to know your product. The "soy wax" in soap calc is fully hydrogenated. Your "soy wax" might not be fully hydrogenated. If it's not, that means it will be higher in oleic acid than the fully hydrogenated type.

Would you make a soap that is half palm oil? Or half lard? If you would, then isn't it reasonable to make a soap that is half soy wax? After all, soy wax, especially the fully hydrogenated kind, is roughly comparable to other fats that are high in palmitic and stearic acids. Examples of fats like this include lard, palm oil, tallow, and the nut butters (cocoa, shea, etc.)

edit: That said, if your soy wax is similar to the soy wax listed in soapcalc, I think you're going to find the soap won't lather well, because the stearic and palmitic acid percentage is a whopping 56%. Stearic and palmitic soap is relatively insoluble, which adds long life to the soap, but also affects the amount of lather the soap is able to make. I try to keep that percentage around 30-40% to get a long lasting bar that still lathers nicely.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

The soap calc says 'Soy bean, fully hydrogenated (soy wax)." But if that's the case, then half the
oils are the soy wax. Would a soap that's half "wax" even be usable?

Pay attention to @DeeAnna's response to your question.

Since I am familiar with MMS lye calc and recipes from back in the day (2004) when I was first starting to soap, that recipe may well have been added to their formulary early on.

To clarify
MMS Calculator lists two options: Soy Oil and Soy Wax. I would choose the Soy Oil option because back in the day, "Soy Oil" referred to the solid (hydrogenated) form not liquid.

On the other hand, SoapCalc lists 3 options, liquid, partially hydrogenated and fully hydrogenated aka "soy wax":

If you compare the partially hydrogenated to the wax, it clarifies @DeeAnna 's point.

LEFT: Soybean 27.5% ~~~ vs ~~ RIGHT: Soy Wax.

Quite a difference! I think you will be happy with the result if you choose the highlighted Soybean 27.5% to make the recipe.

 

[earlene]

Soy wax is used in soap by several soapmakers here at SMF. Some use it at around the 20% to 30% range, while I have seen it mentioned at other percentages as well. If you do a search here at SMF on soy wax soap, you'll find a lot of experience, including sourcing soy wax for use in soap, as opposed to soy wax specifically for use in candle making.

There is a thread in which the true calculator values listed for one of the soy waxes (G415) often used by some of our members was discussed and the conclusion was that neither of the standard selections in most lye calculators is accurate, not only for the SAP value, but for the Fatty Acid profiles. Here is a link to that thread, if you want to know more about that.

In my experience, how high one goes with any given oil in a soap formula depends entirely on the rest of the formula. In some cases my skin cannot tolerate high Coconut Oil in a soap, but in other formulas, it can. It really is formula (or recipe) dependent. In other words, it boils down to all of the other oils and in what proportions and also what additives are also in any given formula.

 

[Carly B]

Thanks, everyone. Unless I am mistaken, the "soybean 27.5 hydrogenated" is a relatively
new entry in SoapCalc.

Not planning on making it--lots of other recipes I'd rather try, and I am drowning in soap I need to find homes
for. But it really made me curious.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

the "soybean 27.5 hydrogenated" is a relatively new entry in SoapCalc.

I think it appeared when adding soy wax to soap became popular (ca. 2003) and when liquid soy (aka "vegetable oil") appeared on the grocer's shelves (fairly recently). All three have the same SAP value but the need to differentiate compostiion became clear.

Before that happened, I purchased solid "Soybean Oil" (aka partially hydrogenated soy) at Costco when the Original Crisco (that contained hydrogenated soybean oil and/or cottonseed oil) changed their formula.

Many of us that used Crisco for cooking didn't like the "new improved" product, including me! The first time I used it for deep frying, after it cooled in the pan, a solid disc of oil sat on top of brown water underneath. UGH!

So, happily, hydrogenated soybean oil hit the market shelves as a sub for Crisco and is a good choice for old-time soap recipes that call for Crisco.

Since then, soybean oil processed in the USA has taken a bad rap for being GMO. It is banned in many countries. But that's a discussion for another time.

That's just my take on it. Others may know otherwise. All comments are most welcome.

 

[Vicki C]

Reviving this thread as I look for ways to keep soap making affordable. The Sam’s club “creamy shortening” has actually gone down in price as opposed to all the other ingredients I use. It’s only $0.07/ounce. It’s not too high in linoleic or linolenic acids. I’m thinking of using it as a partial substitution for OO, maybe 20% total. My usual OO% is 40%.
Thoughts? It seems to check out ok in the recipe calculators I’m just wondering what people’s experience might be.
TIA.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I’m thinking of using it as a partial substitution for OO, maybe 20% total.

Thinking about the Basic Trinity of Oils, Sam’s club “creamy shortening”, if it is indeed Hydrogenated Soy Bean Oil, it is a sub for the palm, lard, tallow, shea butter, Crisco, etc. leg of the trinity; not the Olive Oil leg.

HTH

 

[Vicki C]

I’m not sure what this creamy shortening is - I was thinking it was the 27% hydrogenated oil, but now I think that’s shortening. I think it might be closer to soybean oil - it’s a mix of soybean oil and hydrogenated soybean oil with soybean oil listed first, so it might be a small portion of hydrogenated soy. Hmm.

Smart people let me know if you have better info.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

The search I did turned up “creamy liquid shortening“ which doesn’t sound promising. I can’t read the nutrition label for that product on the Sam’s Club website, but found it here. The saturated fat content is < 20% of total fat.

 

[Vicki C]

Thank you - so, it‘s almost the same as soybean oil. I think I’ll pass.

 

[Johnez]

I'm curious if anyone has found any fully hydrogenated soybean oil or close.

I want stearic acid without the matching palmitic, or at the least-very high amount of stearic acid. I've found an interesting paper that breaks down what amount of hydrogenation correlates to stearic percentage. If I'm not mistaken the corresponding iodine value can be used to infer the stearic percentage as well which is useful since many places that post documents for their soy wax often include the iodine value. 415 soy is probably the closest I've found, however based on the iodine values in docs I've found stearic is only 35-40%. Annoyingly most "stearic acid" I have found sold online is a 50/50 mix of stearic acid and palmitic acid.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I'm curious if anyone has found any fully hydrogenated soybean oil or close.

I want stearic acid without the matching palmitic, or at the least-very high amount of stearic acid. I've found an interesting paper that breaks down what amount of hydrogenation correlates to stearic percentage. If I'm not mistaken the corresponding iodine value can be used to infer the stearic percentage as well which is useful since many places that post documents for their soy wax often include the iodine value. 415 soy is probably the closest I've found, however based on the iodine values in docs I've found stearic is only 35-40%. Annoyingly most "stearic acid" I have found sold online is a 50/50 mix of stearic acid and palmitic acid.

My best estimate of the stearic percentage in GW 415 is 34%, close to your estimate, which I agree it is not enough for those of us that are looking for an economical stearic-rich fat. The long and tortuous path I took to arrive at that percentage is described here and here and includes reference to the paper you mention above. @Shirley-D found a soy wax product at Majestic Mountain Sage that she described as 100% hydrogenated. It may be this one. I didn’t see a link for the COA but I’m sure they would send it if you asked, or maybe shirley-d has a copy. I keep forgetting to order some to try in soap.

 

[Johnez]

My best estimate of the stearic percentage in GW 415 is 34%, close to your estimate, which I agree it is not enough for those of us that are looking for an economical stearic-rich fat. The long and tortuous path I took to arrive at that percentage is described here and here and includes reference to the paper you mention above. @Shirley-D found a soy wax product at Majestic Mountain Sage that she described as 100% hydrogenated. It may be this one. I didn’t see a link for the COA but I’m sure they would send it if you asked, or maybe shirley-d has a copy. I keep forgetting to order some to try in soap.

That wax looks promising with the melting point. Thanks for sharing, I've emailed MMS for info and COA. That is definitely a long and tortuous path. Internet is a double edge sword, info is quick to find but difficult to parse with SO MUCH of it.

 

[Johnez]

I think the MMS soy is the ticket. Several spec sheets I've found show a melt point of 160° for fully hydrogenated soy. I'm going to be ecstatic if that's the case, however I've been disappointed in the past....so bated breath lol. I probably can't and won't source from these guys, but interesting:

https://www.anmol.org/hydrogenatedsoybeanoilUSPNF-BP.html

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I think the MMS soy is the ticket. Several spec sheets I've found show a melt point of 160° for fully hydrogenated soy. I'm going to be ecstatic if that's the case, however I've been disappointed in the past....so bated breath lol. I probably can't and won't source from these guys, but interesting:

https://www.anmol.org/hydrogenatedsoybeanoilUSPNF-BP.html
View attachment 70984

Good detective work

 

[Shirley-D]

Hi @Johnez, @Mobjack Bay is correct, I have used MMS "Soy Wax." Not to be confused with GW415, also called Soy Wax. The MMS soy wax is the one you are looking for @Johnez. It is about 87% stearic and 11% palmitic. Has no linoleic or linolenic. It has a high melt point and is very hard and white. A little goes along way in soap. It also accelerates quickly and has the danger of causing stearic spots if it gets too cool. Still, it certainly has its place in soapmaking. I started using it because I do vegan, palm-free soaps and just a little bit of this gave me the hardness I needed without using animal fats. I also like GW415, and have experimented with both.

Having said that, I recently tried and loved MMS Soy Bean Oil (hydrogenated). This one:
Soybean Oil (hydrogenated)
It is not the high stearic you are looking for, but I wanted to give it a shout out to other soapers that might like it (the review in their site with the pink soap came from me). I wrote to MMS to get the fatty acid profile: Stearic 39%, Palmitic 10%, Oleic 41%, Linoleic 9.3%, Linolenic 1.3%. This is now my favorite ingredient. I use it at 50% with 22% coconut oil, 5% castor and avocado. Still experimenting with adding cocoa butter and/or mango butter to increase longevity and a bit more label appeal.
Hope this helps someone

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Hi @Johnez, @Mobjack Bay is correct, I have used MMS "Soy Wax." Not to be confused with GW415, also called Soy Wax. The MMS soy wax is the one you are looking for @Johnez. It is about 87% stearic and 11% palmitic. Has no linoleic or linolenic. It has a high melt point and is very hard and white. A little goes along way in soap. It also accelerates quickly and has the danger of causing stearic spots if it gets too cool. Still, it certainly has its place in soapmaking. I started using it because I do vegan, palm-free soaps and just a little bit of this gave me the hardness I needed without using animal fats. I also like GW415, and have experimented with both.

Having said that, I recently tried and loved MMS Soy Bean Oil (hydrogenated). This one:
Soybean Oil (hydrogenated)
It is not the high stearic you are looking for, but I wanted to give it a shout out to other soapers that might like it (the review in their site with the pink soap came from me). I wrote to MMS to get the fatty acid profile: Stearic 39%, Palmitic 10%, Oleic 41%, Linoleic 9.3%, Linolenic 1.3%. This is now my favorite ingredient. I use it at 50% with 22% coconut oil, 5% castor and avocado. Still experimenting with adding cocoa butter and/or mango butter to increase longevity and a bit more label appeal.
Hope this helps someone
View attachment 70985

Beautiful soap and valuable information. thank you!

 

[Johnez]

Hi @Johnez, @Mobjack Bay is correct, I have used MMS "Soy Wax." Not to be confused with GW415, also called Soy Wax. The MMS soy wax is the one you are looking for @Johnez. It is about 87% stearic and 11% palmitic. Has no linoleic or linolenic. It has a high melt point and is very hard and white. A little goes along way in soap. It also accelerates quickly and has the danger of causing stearic spots if it gets too cool. Still, it certainly has its place in soapmaking. I started using it because I do vegan, palm-free soaps and just a little bit of this gave me the hardness I needed without using animal fats. I also like GW415, and have experimented with both.

Having said that, I recently tried and loved MMS Soy Bean Oil (hydrogenated). This one:
Soybean Oil (hydrogenated)
It is not the high stearic you are looking for, but I wanted to give it a shout out to other soapers that might like it (the review in their site with the pink soap came from me). I wrote to MMS to get the fatty acid profile: Stearic 39%, Palmitic 10%, Oleic 41%, Linoleic 9.3%, Linolenic 1.3%. This is now my favorite ingredient. I use it at 50% with 22% coconut oil, 5% castor and avocado. Still experimenting with adding cocoa butter and/or mango butter to increase longevity and a bit more label appeal.
Hope this helps someone
View attachment 70985

That seems to be a very promising direction. I'm pretty interested in the hard evidence to show this to be the case. The revelations over the years have made me a cynic, from finding out commercial "stearic acid" is mostly palmitic (who would have thought that?!) to having soap calc numbers be quite wrong for both hydrogenated soys. Some of us have been led to make very wrong assumptions. I have to say this MMS wax is giving me hope!

 

[Shirley-D]

@Johnez, the folks at MMS were helpful to me and gave me a lot of information. I was able to make my own custom oil entry in this forum's lye calculator. You can also buy 100% stearic acid on Amazon. It will cause immediate acceleration, ask me how I know!
https://www.amazon.com/Stearic-Acid...676748078&sprefix=stearic+acid,aps,207&sr=8-5