HP compared to MP hardness

[huffychick]

I normally do MP soap in 4oz bars. I know this may be hard to gauge because everyone uses soap differently and obviously more or less than others. let's do a for instance, say you use your bar soap for your body in the shower once a day, do you think a HP bar should be cut in 4oz bars like MP bars 4oz to last around the same time?? I am definitely not wording this right but hopefully someone understands what I'm asking. for the HP recipes, I try to keep my hardness between 38-45...is a HP bar going to last longer than a MP? if i dont make any sense, i dont blame you for not answering haha thanks!

 

[TVivian]

I think this is why it's important to make lots of soap and try different recipes and see what YOU like and what works best for you! After making many batches and letting them cure properly, you're going to start to recognize a good soap from a lesser soap.


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[shunt2011]

I agree totally with tvivian. It takes a lot of making and testing to find what works best for you and if you plan on selling your customers.

 

[huffychick]

okay, so is there a way to know the hardness of MP?

 

[Nightlilly]

You want to figure out what size your HP bar needs to be in order to last as long in the shower as a 4oz MP bar would, right? If you're talking about the hardness numbers in soapcalc for example.....from everything I've been reading here on the board and elsewhere hardness doesn't equal long lasting. It can be a super hard bar and still dissolve quickly.

 

[sistrum]

Use it and see how long it lasts.

 

[huffychick]

okay thanks nevermind. i'm done using this website. it seems like everyone seems to think i'm selling the bars i just made last night and they are mad about it, which im not but whatever. thanks for not helping. i thought someone would actually be able to give advice, not an opinion. i thought these forums were used to help make a better bar of soap, not to tell someone they are stupid for trying to sell it.

 

[judymoody]

I think what people are trying to say is that you need to experiment to find out. I have no experience with M&P so I can't answer your question. But I think that the only way to find out would be to start with bars of identical weight and alternate showering every other day with each one and take notes on how long each lasts. You could weigh them once per week to determine how quickly they dissolve.

 

[TVivian]

I was saying that there are no definitive answers to your question. Even by looking at all of the numbers.. No one here could possibly tell you exactly how much longer one soap would last than another. Most of the advice here is educated opinion . .. In my opinion


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[CaraCara]

I second TVivian's post. It is the oils used that will determine how long the bar will last, not so much the method. MP has other additives and hardens quickly and seems to last quite a while (made some for the kid who loves weird, sparkly soaps), whereas my HP soaps definitely don't last as long if I use oils that don't have a higher oleic, palmitic and stearic content. I find that if the lauric content is around 12-14%, oleic at 40+% and the stearic/palmitic combined is at 20+% the bar will be hard, conditioning, and seems to last. Maybe I'm crazy, but so far my best soaps have these qualities in common. There are exceptions though, such as castille. So many different combinations can achieve the same results and that's why you need to experiment, give yourself time to see the results and find that sweet recipe that works. For your clients that are requesting it, make a small batch, let it cure for a couple of weeks minimum and let them test sample sizes. Here is a basic recipe: 40% OO, 25% each of CO and PO, 10% Castor oil. I don't use soapcalc but plug it in and see what populates.
ETA that I use SM3.

 

[pamielynn]

I don't want you to take this wrong way, but I think you're trying to compare apples and oranges. MP is very different than HP.
And truly the only way to know if you want your HP bars bigger to compensate for being more soluble is to try them out and see how fast they melt.

 

[huffychick]

I second TVivian's post. It is the oils used that will determine how long the bar will last, not so much the method. MP has other additives and hardens quickly and seems to last quite a while (made some for the kid who loves weird, sparkly soaps), whereas my HP soaps definitely don't last as long if I use oils that don't have a higher oleic, palmitic and stearic content. I find that if the lauric content is around 12-14%, oleic at 40+% and the stearic/palmitic combined is at 20+% the bar will be hard, conditioning, and seems to last. Maybe I'm crazy, but so far my best soaps have these qualities in common. There are exceptions though, such as castille. So many different combinations can achieve the same results and that's why you need to experiment, give yourself time to see the results and find that sweet recipe that works. For your clients that are requesting it, make a small batch, let it cure for a couple of weeks minimum and let them test sample sizes. Here is a basic recipe: 40% OO, 25% each of CO and PO, 10% Castor oil. I don't use soapcalc but plug it in and see what populates.

This is an answer I was looking for, an explanation. Not use it to see. Hasn't anyone else wondered the same thing? Hasn't anyone else figured a general answer? I don't want to use my bars till after at least two weeks after I made them so I can't try it yet...I guess I assumed someone else already knew.

 

[huffychick]

Also, I'm completely irritated now on this site because more than one person has smart remarks because they think I'm trying to sell lye or crappy bars. I ask a question and its probably a stupid one BECAUSE I don't have experience, and someone always bites back because they know I don't have experience but STILL think I'm going to sell my first or second batch or whatever. Yeah I'd like to, but realistically I probably won't. But if its a damn good bar, then why not? Excuse my language but I feel like people have short and smart remarks towards me because of this. I ask stupid questions to LEARN to make a good bar. I'm a logical person, and I learn by numbers. That's just me. Lol now I'm just mad so I don't even make any sense. I'm making some tea soap tonight and its going to be great so be mad at me!

 

[Obsidian]

No one is saying you have crappy bars, just untested bars. Its like making chocolate chip cookies and selling them without tasting them. In the three months I've been soaping, I've made around 30 batches and am just now getting a recipe I would be comfortable selling locally. I've only repeated a couple recipes, even a tiny difference can make a big difference in how CP/HP performs.
I see the frustration on both sides. You are used to a simple base you can tweek and be good to go, now you want to do the same with HP but it just doesn't work that way.
People are trying to teach you about HP and explain why its different and why its so important to practice/test before selling but you keep comparing HP to M&P and being stubborn when you don't get the answers you want. You also constantly speak of selling and your customers so yes, it sounds like you plan on selling these first couple batches as soon as you can.
Do I think this is a terrible thing? Not necessarily, not as long as the soap is safe but you could end up with unhappy customers if two weeks after you sell a batch it goes rancid or completely dissolved away in a week.

 

[huffychick]

and THAT is the exact reason why I haven't sold them yet. I'm not disappointed because I'm not getting the answer I want, I'm not even really getting an answer! I'm getting remarks like i should make HP/CP for 6 months to a year before even thinking about selling. however, i have received some extremely helpful numbers and advice, and not of people telling me what i should and shouldnt do. now i dont even want to post anything because someone will have something rude to say. im not the type to do it but i just want to make a good bar and say i told you so that i could do it! i feel like someone is saying whatever i make for the first six months wont be good enough for anyone. feeling completely discouraged...

 

[sistrum]

No one is "picking" on you. In your first post you said you "take WELL to constrictive criticism" and that's what you have been getting along with a LOT of very good information. You do say in a lot of your posts that you plan on selling if you think they are"good". The problem is you won't know if they are good for many months, not just a few weeks.
it's not only you that the forum warns against selling early. Here's an example

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=27103


If you want to continue learning about making quality soap for you and your clients many people will be willing to help you(and have been). But part of that learning is going to including testing your bars for at LEAST six months and not put the cart before the horse.


http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=3969

 

[huffychick]

okay, let me re word constructive criticism. i meant to say i work well with comments that actually tell me what happens to the soap when i try to do this or not do that, not you won't know until you try it. i thought someone else tried it and got some kind of results that they could share. i dont want to keep bickering over whether or not comments made were useful to you or not, i'd rather make my soap. so sorry i even bothered. thanks.

 

[lpstephy85]

Hippy, I had the same thing happen a couple of months ago http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=36309

At first, I really let it get to me that people were telling me how to do things. I told myself I would not come back on here, but I was lurking around and picked up somethings along the way. I have not sold anything yet and I don't plan on going to the farmers market like I mentioned. I believe in my product as I have had soaps since May curing and nothing has gone rancid yet, but I am still trying to find the perfect recipe that doesn't dry my skin out so I hope it won't others.

People can give you suggestions on plenty of things, but most of them are right: just try it. You cannot go off the word of someone else until you try it. I wanted to tell you that on your other post about your HP recipe but I didn't want to come off snarky by telling you to just try it and see how it works for you. Everyone has different results and everyone has different skin so something that might be luxurious on your skin might not be one someone else. No one once said that they don't think your product maybe good, because well they can't say that because they haven't tried.

I understand wanting some guidance and suggestions, but this is your product so it is best that you try things until you know how certain things are going to react and be some time from now. Good luck on your ventures :-D

 

[judymoody]

Also, I'm completely irritated now on this site because more than one person has smart remarks because they think I'm trying to sell lye or crappy bars. I ask a question and its probably a stupid one BECAUSE I don't have experience, and someone always bites back because they know I don't have experience but STILL think I'm going to sell my first or second batch or whatever. Yeah I'd like to, but realistically I probably won't. But if its a damn good bar, then why not? Excuse my language but I feel like people have short and smart remarks towards me because of this. I ask stupid questions to LEARN to make a good bar. I'm a logical person, and I learn by numbers. That's just me. Lol now I'm just mad so I don't even make any sense. I'm making some tea soap tonight and its going to be great so be mad at me!

Tell me this, if you're not going to sell your HP soap until you're sure it's good, then why have you already advertised your first two batches of HP soap on your facebook page as part of your new 2.0 line?

https://www.facebook.com/hippychicproducts

Your credibility just plummeted to zero. Pardon me if I don't take your hurt feelings seriously.

 

[huffychick]

Tell me this, if you're not going to sell your HP soap until you're sure it's good, then why have you already advertised your first two batches of HP soap on your facebook page as part of your new 2.0 line?

https://www.facebook.com/hippychicproducts

Your credibility just plummeted to zero. Pardon me if I don't take your hurt feelings seriously.

Didn't say those were for sale yet. Sneak peek? Don't take things out of context now.

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