How To Compensate for Dried Orange Peels Affecting Lye?

[PaintyLiz]

Hi All,

I looked through a lot of posts, didn't see this info, but maybe I just missed it. I'm still fairly new to soaping, so I guess I didn't think I needed to do any research, but when I did, I didn't find any answers anyway.

I make 0% SF 100% Coconut Oil dish bars & love them! I thought I'd add some old dried orange peels I had laying around, so ground them up & threw them in at trace.

I noticed the bars did not set up as quickly as usual. Huh .. now when I use them they are wonderfully creamy, but not sure they clean as well. Also, a white bloom formed on the ones I took out of the molds early. The ones I left in longer look fine.

I'm thinking it's that the citric acid in the orange peels affected the lye - but how would you know how much to offset the lye? I'm not finding any info. Also these peels had a lot of pith (white part) in them. That probably had an impact.

Anyway, wondering how to adjust this next time. Since it's 0% SF I don't want to end up with unsaponified lye, although it would probably clean dishes great LOL

Thanks for any help/suggestions! You all are great!

sorry, I didn't specify - the soap is just organic coconut oil & lye. No other ingredients. 0% Super Fat

 

[DeeAnna]

"...citric acid in the orange peels..."

It's the juice in the fruit that contains citric acid. Orange zest contains essential oil, but does not contain juice. The pith (white part of the peel) also does not contain juice.

Even if there were small bits of fruit sticking to the peelings, the amount of juice in these bits will be tiny. So if you use dried orange peel the way most soap makers do, the amount of citric acid supplied by the peelings is small to non-existent. Don't worry about that.

Best guess is your soap didn't get warm enough to go into gel. The most obvious issue caused by this is the sap will be softer.

Soap that doesn't get sufficiently warm is also slower to saponify. That means it is more likely to form soda ash (the white stuff you mention) as the soap is exposed to air.

At zero superfat, your soap may be slightly lye heavy even with the best of conditions. Don't fret about this as long as you're taking reasonable care to weigh your ingredients and make the soap properly. A slight amount of lye heaviness in properly made soap will dissipate as the soap cures.

As to why the soap appears to not clean as well, it's possible you're not as objective about your soap as you would like to be. You suspect the soap has been damaged by citric acid, so therefore the soap does not clean as well as you think it should. This is a common factor in human psychology called "observational bias." This bias happens to all of us, even the best of soap makers. But that's just a guess, not a fact -- I'd have to test your soap myself to have a better opinion.

More about using citric acid and citrus juices in soap making: https://classicbells.com/soap/citricAcid.asp

 

[PaintyLiz]

"...citric acid in the orange peels..."

It's the juice in the fruit that contains citric acid. Orange zest contains essential oil, but does not contain juice. The pith (white part of the peel) also does not contain juice.

Even if there were small bits of fruit sticking to the peelings, the amount of juice in these bits will be tiny. So if you use dried orange peel the way most soap makers do, the amount of citric acid supplied by the peelings is small to non-existent. Don't worry about that.

Best guess is your soap didn't get warm enough to go into gel. The most obvious issue caused by this is the sap will be softer.

Soap that doesn't get sufficiently warm is also slower to saponify. That means it is more likely to form soda ash (the white stuff you mention) as the soap is exposed to air.

At zero superfat, your soap may be slightly lye heavy even with the best of conditions. Don't fret about this as long as you're taking reasonable care to weigh your ingredients and make the soap properly. A slight amount of lye heaviness in properly made soap will dissipate as the soap cures.

As to why the soap appears to not clean as well, it's possible you're not as objective about your soap as you would like to be. You suspect the soap has been damaged by citric acid, so therefore the soap does not clean as well as you think it should. This is a common factor in human psychology called "observational bias." This bias happens to all of us, even the best of soap makers. But that's just a guess, not a fact -- I'd have to test your soap myself to have a better opinion.

More about using citric acid and citrus juices in soap making: https://classicbells.com/soap/citricAcid.asp

Thank you for your long reply

Don't know if you've ever made 100% coconut oil soap, but it sets up pretty much as soon as you pour it. Bars can be cut within a couple hours. This did not set up 'normal' hard until the next day, although I unmolded some after a couple hours to see what they looked like.

At this point, I don't know if it cleans as well, but the feel, creaminess & softness is definitely different. It's very very nice, maybe too nice for dish soap LOL

You have a different opinion on how much citric acid is in orange peels, and I guarantee you there was something in the peels that changed the lye reaction.

Citric Acid in Orange Peels​

Orange peels contain a significant amount of citric acid. Specifically:

• One medium orange typically contains 53% of its vitamin C content in the peel, which translates to a substantial amount of citric acid.

While the exact concentration of citric acid in orange peels is not explicitly stated, these findings suggest that orange peels are a rich source of citric acid, with a percentage likely in the range of 40-60% or higher.

If my soap cleans as well as it used to (it is totally awesome) then I'm going to keep putting orange peels in because it is really lovely now.

 

[DeeAnna]

Don't know if you've ever made 100% coconut oil soap, but it sets up pretty much as soon as you pour it. ...

Yes, I've made quite a few batches of 100% coconut oil soap. Yes, this type of soap usually does set up fast and get very hard soon after making. But that point is true is IF and ONLY if the soap gets warm enough to go into gel.

If the soap does NOT get hot enough to go into gel, coconut oil soap can end up just as soft and pasty in the mold as any other soap that doesn't go into gel. I've batches go both directions and know very well what I'm talking about.

I stand corrected about the citric acid in orange peel. Thanks for the information on that point.

 

[PaintyLiz]

Yes, I've made quite a few batches of 100% coconut oil soap. Yes, this type of soap usually does set up fast and get very hard soon after making. But that point is true is IF and ONLY if the soap gets warm enough to go into gel.

If the soap does NOT get hot enough to go into gel, coconut oil soap can end up just as soft and pasty in the mold as any other soap that doesn't go into gel. I've batches go both directions and know very well what I'm talking about.

I stand corrected about the citric acid in orange peel. Thanks for the information on that point.

Well, we'll just have to disagree, because my soap doesn't gel, I slice it just about as soon as I pour it. I do really like whatever happened with the addition of the orange peel - it really is soooo creamy

Oh & forgot to say thanks for the info on the lye dissipating, good to know

 

[PaintyLiz]

oh, one more thing that probably doesn't matter at all
I make shampoo bars that are 10% superfat & they are NOT at all creamy. Great lather, but not the 'creamy' feel of this soap. So I think something special happened, I don't think it's just that there is some reduction in the lye ... I wonder what it is. Maybe all that white pith

 

[Ephemerella]

I'm totally fascinated by this, @PaintyLiz would you mind sharing some details please? I'd like to give this a go!

Your orange peels, you peeled yourself, let dry, and then ground in a food chopper or coffee grinder? How much did you add?

I assume you like it for cleaning dishes, does it make your hands dry? Leave streaks? Leave soap scum? Is your water hard or soft?

Sorry for a thousand questions, and thank you for sharing this, I'm really intrigued!

 

[PaintyLiz]

I'm totally fascinated by this, @PaintyLiz would you mind sharing some details please? I'd like to give this a go!

Your orange peels, you peeled yourself, let dry, and then ground in a food chopper or coffee grinder? How much did you add?

I assume you like it for cleaning dishes, does it make your hands dry? Leave streaks? Leave soap scum? Is your water hard or soft?

Sorry for a thousand questions, and thank you for sharing this, I'm really intrigued!

I started making dish soap & shampoo because I have multiple horrid chemical allergies & most soaps (especially liquid) and lotions cause terrible rashes.

TBH I don't remember where I got the original recipe for the dish soap since every one I've seen since has multiple oils. This is just a very basic 100% coconut oil 0% SF. I get Organic Coconut Oil at Sam's Club for cheap. I added a little charcoal swirl to be fancy schmancy & poured it into molds. But you can just slice it up.

You can see the orange peel better on the back

The original recipe is THE BOMB for cleaning greasy burnt pans! It is the most awesome dish soap I've ever used! Just rub it over the dirty wet pan & use a plastic or metal scrubby & it cleans amazingly fast! I usually just rub it on a wet scrubby. It also make great laundry soap (add 5 oz soap, 3 cups each borax, washing soda & baking soda). I add some water in the washer first & put in about 1/3 cup for large toploader & let it dissolve a bit before I add the clothes.

Hands: I actually use it just for washing my hands many many times a day. They are not dry & no longer have rashes.

Dishes: It cleans dishes really well, but I have a dishwasher for most Does a fantastic job on pans, no streaks. Caveat - I do not know if the new 'orange' soap will behave the same way, I haven't had any dirty pans yet LOL Perhaps the orange oil will improve the cleaning (you can make good cleaner by putting orange peels in a jar of vinegar)

Water: possibly hard, but the soap foams like crazy. I also make 100% coconut oil shampoo bar with 10% SF which also foams like crazy (I think I will reduce SF next time after reading all about too much fat causing plumbing problems.) We live in a small travel trailer so my plumbing is very different from house plumbing.

Note about Citric Acid - apparently it can reduce soap scum - so hopefull orange peels will reduce soap scum - I plan to add them to my next batch of shampoo. Since theoretically they might be decreasing the lye activity, I really will have to remember to lower the SF

Peels: The orange peels were from oranges we ate & dried in a dehydrator. The ones I happened to use had very thick white pith. They were really hard & I ground them in a small bladed coffee/spice grinder. I don't remember how much I added, probably about 1/2 orange's worth. If I had realized it was going to have a chemical effect, I might have thought to measure it. Then again, maybe not LOL

For complarison, there is an 'original recipe' version. It's actually much smaller & I learned my lesson - bigger is much better. I end up with a bunch of soaps the size of a dice that I have to try to stick together.

Let me know how yours turns out & whether you like it as much as I do!

 

[PaintyLiz]

Okay cleaning results are in! The orange peel soap cleans fantastically. We had a pan with hard baked-on cheese - it cleaned it really well, left no greasy feel. That was what I was concerned about because it feels so creamy I thought it might have too much fat to clean without leaving streaks/grease

Here's a pic of the lovely creamy suds even while cleaning greasy cheese!

 

[AliOop]

Well, we'll just have to disagree, because my soap doesn't gel, I slice it just about as soon as I pour it. I do really like whatever happened with the addition of the orange peel - it really is soooo creamy

My 100% CO soap gets very hot and absolutely does gel before I cut it, which is usually no more than two hours after pouring. But if yours didn't gel, then maybe that's part of why it is softer and creamier than previous batches. It does sound like the extra CA from the orange peels may have had some effect, too, because it would have increased the SF. Hopefully you can recreate this!

As for your 100% CO hair soap, I personally wouldn't reduce the SF below 10%. We used that recipe but with 20% SF on our hair for many years. Eventually my husband could no longer use it because it was so drying. That's when we switched to a true shampoo bar, one made with syndet shampoo ingredients and not lye soap. It was a tough decision since I have lots of allergies and sensitivities and was worried about bad reactions. Thankfully, my hair and scalp health actually improved significantly when we switched, probably because I use very basic and fairly "clean" ingredients.

Anyway, I can't imagine how drying the 100% CO soap would have been on our hair if it had only 10% SF. Yikes! But, everyone reacts differently to things. Just be careful to keep a close eye and be ready to switch if you start seeing any damage to your hair.

 

[Ephemerella]

@PaintyLiz Wow! Thank you so much for such a thoroughly detailed response! I really appreciate it and am so excited to try this! I have dried orange peel that I use for cooking, I'll be excited to give it a go, thank you!

 

[PaintyLiz]

My 100% CO soap gets very hot and absolutely does gel before I cut it, which is usually no more than two hours after pouring. But if yours didn't gel, then maybe that's part of why it is softer and creamier than previous batches. It does sound like the extra CA from the orange peels may have had some effect, too, because it would have increased the SF. Hopefully you can recreate this!

As for your 100% CO hair soap, I personally wouldn't reduce the SF below 10%. We used that recipe but with 20% SF on our hair for many years. Eventually my husband could no longer use it because it was so drying. That's when we switched to a true shampoo bar, one made with syndet shampoo ingredients and not lye soap. It was a tough decision since I have lots of allergies and sensitivities and was worried about bad reactions. Thankfully, my hair and scalp health actually improved significantly when we switched, probably because I use very basic and fairly "clean" ingredients.

Anyway, I can't imagine how drying the 100% CO soap would have been on our hair if it had only 10% SF. Yikes! But, everyone reacts differently to things. Just be careful to keep a close eye and be ready to switch if you start seeing any damage to your hair.

Except for the first batch, mIne does not normally gel - I know because I'm an impatient person & I'm on it like a hawk LOL One of the reasons that I love CO - it's so instantly rewarding.

We spray our hair with organic ACV & filtered water when we're done & it's beautiful & no tangles. I don't usually rinse after that. I have hair past my shoulders & no split ends.

We have been using the 10% on our hair & bodies for a couple years I have soap with more types of oils (OO, Shea, Castor & Clay) for our bodies, but we don't usually bother LOL Hubs has psoriasis so you'd think it would be bad, but it's actually really improved.

It may be modulated by the fact that we take ivermectin every day & I've noticed that the skin on my hands & feet has vastly improved - NO CRACKED HEELS! Turns out there are many many many wonderful things about ivermectin that have been hidden.

That shampoo bar will CLEAN YOUR FEET! I ground all day (barefoot in other words) so my feet are .... grungy at best.

Anyway, hopefully we won't have any issues. Thanks so much for the info.

 

[PaintyLiz]

@PaintyLiz Wow! Thank you so much for such a thoroughly detailed response! I really appreciate it and am so excited to try this! I have dried orange peel that I use for cooking, I'll be excited to give it a go, thank you!​

The pic of the suds in the pan was not very good because it dried out while I went to find my tablet. Here is a better one from today. I just rub the scrubby on the soap, it uses very little.

​

I tested it on a glass bowl, it cleans super squeaky clean with no residue or grease. It made my hands squeaky clean but not dry ?? weird

YMMV of course

​

 

[Ekuzo]

That’s an interesting thread!

I'd say, if it cleans well and feels right, don't change it - even if there's some citric acid in the peels, just keep the SF at 0% and don't add any more NaOH. It probably doesn't eat that much lye to make a visible difference, plus CO is so cleansing that a tiny positive SF won't kick the scale in the wrong direction, I think. But definitely measure the amount of peels you use and take notes, so you can replicate the result with no hassle

 

[Firefly24]

Except for the first batch, mIne does not normally gel - I know because I'm an impatient person & I'm on it like a hawk LOL One of the reasons that I love CO - it's so instantly rewarding.

We spray our hair with organic ACV & filtered water when we're done & it's beautiful & no tangles. I don't usually rinse after that. I have hair past my shoulders & no split ends.

We have been using the 10% on our hair & bodies for a couple years I have soap with more types of oils (OO, Shea, Castor & Clay) for our bodies, but we don't usually bother LOL Hubs has psoriasis so you'd think it would be bad, but it's actually really improved.

It may be modulated by the fact that we take ivermectin every day & I've noticed that the skin on my hands & feet has vastly improved - NO CRACKED HEELS! Turns out there are many many many wonderful things about ivermectin that have been hidden.

That shampoo bar will CLEAN YOUR FEET! I ground all day (barefoot in other words) so my feet are .... grungy at best.

Anyway, hopefully we won't have any issues. Thanks so much for the info.

Interesting info but may I ask what is ACV? Ivermectin lotion is good for rosacea too.

 

[PaintyLiz]

Interesting info but may I ask what is ACV? Ivermectin lotion is good for rosacea too.

Apple Cider Vinegar - apparently acid makes the scales on your hair flatten down so you don't get tangles. Seems to really work, my hair is inches below my shoulder & so easy to brush, wet or dry. I've also stopped using plastic brushes on my hair. I bought a brush that is pure boar bristle with a wooden handle. Look in the Black section - They seem to know better health for hair! So I'm not sure how all these small changes work together, but I haven't got one split end! (68 y/o)

Re Rosacea - before I became AWAKE a few years ago, back when we still went to MDs - my husband got a tube of ivermectin from his dr for his rosacea LOL I told him, well at least you won't get worms, since it is what I use for the dogs! Little did I know what a wonder drug ivermectin is!