How much ice to use while keeping the soap hot?

[CelestialLizzie]

I recently made my first batch of soap as an adult, and… kind of a nightmare.
First part of the nightmare I literally spent almost an hour trying to mix the lye with all my distilled water frozen in cubes since I heard (can’t remember where from) that 100% frozen liquids was a good idea, and I also realized that the lye I was using was over a year old, and that’s why there were teeny little bits left that wouldn’t incorporate, this literally took so long that I had to go back inside and microwave the oils again, and I even started over with the lye water solution since it wasn’t incorporating fully.
However, when I finally put it all together, I felt a sense of joy with myself I have rarely felt! It was so satisfying to see it all blend together!

Anyway, I’m posting talking about the second part of the nightmare; when I cut it up about a day and a half later (kept it in the fridge the whole time to prevent gel phase) and when I cut into it, it immediately started to crumble pretty hardcore. I’ve been looking some stuff up, and apparently the most common things that cause this are too much lye, and the oils/lye solution being too cold. I feel very confident that the lye was right because I was soooo careful with it, turns out the lye was expired and therefore less powerful, and I did the tongue test and it seemed fine? I have no idea how accurate that is though and I’m getting some ph strips, but on either rate I know everything I was working with was only around 100 degrees Fahrenheit by the time it was incorporated, which is too cool for this sort of thing. Stuff was so cool I had to not just microwave the oils again, but I had to put my pitcher with the lye solution in a hot water bath until it went from like 70-ish to 101- ish (since I learned that was another reason why the lye wasn’t incorporating.

I was just wondering how hot you guys work with CP, and how you keep things warm and still within 10 degrees of each other? Or if there’s something I’m missing?
Also a teeny question but I found this tiny spot that looks like glycerin, but it was in the fridge and everything was super cold so I’m not even sure if it was that.

 

[Blufuz]

I’m sort of new to this, but the only time I’ve seen advice when you need to freeze anything is when instead of using water you’re using a liquid you don’t want to burn, like milk or fruit juice. The NaOH melts the ice cubes, and still reaches fairly warm temperatures. If you’re just using water, it’s better to use room temperature, then you can much more easily make sure everything dissolves. And when it seems like some parts might not be dissolved, then pass it through a sieve when pouring into the oils. Freezing water may save you from waiting for the lye to cool, but for me it’s not worth the effort especially in winter.

I have successfully made CP soap with and without ice cubes when my oils were even at 90-95 F, then I leave them outside in the winter cold to saponify overnight. I never had a problem, but maybe just luck

What recipe did you use? How long did you wait to unmold the soap?

 

[KiwiMoose]

It would help us to diagnose if you post your full recipe.
It seems to me like you waited too long to cut it. I usually cut mine between 10 - 16 hours ( but I do gel).
It sounds like there was a problem with your lye if it wasn't incorporating ( or did you use more lye than water?). I tend to use half water and half ice cubes and the lye generally melts the ice within a minute, and dissolves fully in under two minutes ( it's important to keep stirring the entire time until it is all dissolved).
The 10 degrees difference is a rule of thumb, but it is not paramount. Also - many soapers have everything at room temperature ( about your 75 degrees?) so it's not important that things stay 'warm' at all. I tend to aim for about 40 - 45 degrees (100 - 115), but that's because my ingredients don't soap cool too well - (soy wax and shea butter, and sometimes cocoa butter totalling 35-40% of the recipe).
Don't bother with the pH strips - if the tongue test didn't zap, then it's not lye heavy. All soap has a high pH.

 

[CelestialLizzie]

What recipe did you use? How long did you wait to unmold the soap?

This is the recipe I made;
Liquid - 4.24 oz
Lye - 1.90 oz
Shea Butter - 2.60 oz
Cocoa Butter Pastilles - 2.60 oz
Palm oil - 2.60 oz
Coconut Oil - 2.60 oz
Olive oil - 2.60 oz

I waited about a day and a half, does how long you mail to unmold affect the soap?

 

[CelestialLizzie]

It would help us to diagnose if you post your full recipe.
It seems to me like you waited too long to cut it. I usually cut mine between 10 - 16 hours ( but I do gel).

You can look at my comment above for that

It sounds like there was a problem with your lye if it wasn't incorporating ( or did you use more lye than water?). I tend to use half water and half ice cubes and the lye generally melts the ice within a minute, and dissolves fully in under two minutes ( it's important to keep stirring the entire time until it is all dissolved).

I found out the lye was old after I made the soap, so that was what was wrong with the lye lol.

The 10 degrees difference is a rule of thumb, but it is not paramount. Also - many soapers have everything at room temperature ( about your 75 degrees?) so it's not important that things stay 'warm' at all. I tend to aim for about 40 - 45 degrees (100 - 115), but that's because my ingredients don't soap cool too well - (soy wax and shea butter, and sometimes cocoa butter totalling 35-40% of the recipe).

I saw on the Soap Queen website that soap can be crumbly because everything was too cool… so I assumed that was issue. I also had a lot of hard oils in my recipe, that made of also made this happen.

Don't bother with the pH strips - if the tongue test didn't zap, then it's not lye heavy. All soap has a high pH.

Huh. I was honestly just not sure how accurate the zap test was, thanks for that!

 

[KiwiMoose]

Your recipe is 80% saturated fats (hard fats) and that is why it is brittle. You might be better to look at reducing some of those hard fats and using a more balanced recipe with more liquid oils. I especially find cocoa butter to be brittle - I can't speak for palm because I've never used it.
When you cut your soap should not be time based - it should be 'feel' based. When it feels like a block of edam cheese it should be ready to cut.

 

[Blufuz]

I waited about a day and a half, does how long you mail to unmold affect the soap?

I also go by feel, start checking 12h after filling the mold, then cut as soon as I can. Basically once it’s hard enough that the corners won’t warp when squeezing it out of the (silicone) mold. The one time I got edges like yours was when I did a 100% coconut oil soap, and I should have checked it even sooner. On the plus side, the soap is perfectly ok

Regarding pH strips, a lot of the experienced soapers say there’s no point and the zap test is perfect, but honestly when there’s a patch of liquid still oozing from the soap, I’d much rather check with the strips if it’s lye (pH 14), rather than risk my fingers and tongue! There’s no way even low quality phd strips can’t tell you that, even if they can’t distinguish between a pH 8 and a pH 9 soap.

 

[TheGecko]

Concur with @KiwiMoose regarding too many hard oils. Take an ounce each from Cocoa and Shea Butters and add then your Olive Oil.

You can use year-old lye providing that it has been kept sealed. If you have a lot of hard lumps in it…toss it. Before I started Master Batching, I used frozen Distilled Water; keeps the fumes down and keeps the Lye Solution cool. I usually soap at around 90F. No need to refrigerator your soap this time of the year, just stick it out in the garage. I don’t gel my soaps either, but the only time refrigerate is my Goat Milk Soap and it’s 80F+. I have left my soap in the mold for a week without issue during the winter.

Happy to see your making small batches

 

[Zany_in_CO]

How much ice to use while keeping the soap hot?​

None.

Keep your distilled water in the fridge. Add the NaOH to the cold water and set it in the kitchen sink. Melt your oils/fats/ butters to the recommended temps:

Recipes high in olive oil (and similar) - 100° - 120°F
Recipes high in hard oils/fats/butters - 120° - 135°F

By the time the FAs (Fatty Acids) are heated to the right temp for mixing, the lye solution should be within the 10° +/- of the oils.

NOTE: Using the ice cube method is appropriate for making goat milk soap and similar soaps known to be "heaters".

ADVICE TO BEGINNERS

When posting recipes, it's best to share a printout of your lye calculation. I use SoapCalc.net

The Basic Trinity of Oils is a good starter recipe. Once you learn what each leg of the trinity brings to the batch, you can experiment with designing your own recipes. Try different oils/fats/ butters and additives (one at a time!) to create the soap your skin likes. Or you may just want to stay with that formula. It is good for all skin types and featured in popular soaps purchased online like Dr. Squatch.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Basic Trinity of Oils printout:

 

[CelestialLizzie]

Your recipe is 80% saturated fats (hard fats) and that is why it is brittle. You might be better to look at reducing some of those hard fats and using a more balanced recipe with more liquid oils. I especially find cocoa butter to be brittle - I can't speak for palm because I've never used it.
When you cut your soap should not be time based - it should be 'feel' based. When it feels like a block of edam cheese it should be ready to cut.

You know, I had a feeling that was probably it, I don’t know where I got the idea that it would’ve been not a big deal, I’ll figure out a way to incorporate everything I want without so much hard oils. Thank you!

 

[TheGecko]

You know, I had a feeling that was probably it, I don’t know where I got the idea that it would’ve been not a big deal, I’ll figure out a way to incorporate everything I want without so much hard oils. Thank you!

It's a big rabbit hole you know...soap making. All those lovely butters and oils, scents and colorants, and molds. As advised by @Zany_in_CO, start with a basic recipe and make some soap. Uncolored, unscented soap is pleasing. Then you can start experimenting with different oils and butters (one at a time) and see whether you like it or not. And the same with scent and color.

 

[thetoe]

I use ice cubes and cold water for lye solution. I find it cools the lye quicker and less nasty steam.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I concur with @Zany_in_CO about the refrigerated water. I keep mine in the fridge and still combine ice cubes with the refrigerated water. I do the lye solution first, and then melt the hard oils while it is cooling. Very time efficient

 

[Becky1024]

Old lye is ok to use as long as it flows freely and doesn’t have large clumps in it. Clumps mean that moisture got in it and partially activated it.

What did you use to cut the loaf? A sharp blade can cause soap to crumble.

 

[CelestialLizzie]

Old lye is ok to use as long as it flows freely and doesn’t have large clumps in it. Clumps mean that moisture got in it and partially activated it.
What did you use to cut the loaf? A sharp blade can cause soap to crumble.

I’ll definitely keep both of these in mind!
I used a kitchen knife, but I realized I had a regular soap cutter. I remember seeing other people use a kitchen knife that was used exclusively for soap, but I didn’t realize it being sharper would be a bad thing.

 

[CelestialLizzie]

The Basic Trinity of Oils is a good starter recipe. Once you learn what each leg of the trinity brings to the batch, you can experiment with designing your own recipes. Try different oils/fats/ butters and additives (one at a time!) to create the soap your skin likes. Or you may just want to stay with that formula.

It's a big rabbit hole you know...soap making. All those lovely butters and oils, scents and colorants, and molds. As advised by @Zany_in_CO, start with a basic recipe and make some soap. Uncolored, unscented soap is pleasing. Then you can start experimenting with different oils and butters (one at a time) and see whether you like it or not. And the same with scent and color.

I probably should scale down in terms of complexity, I’m doing teeny tiny batches in order to just get a hold of the hobby and work my way into doing more complicated stuff like Royalty Soap and so forth; the idea of making soap has stuck with me for so long since my mom was so good with it and I remember making big batches of unusable soap because I just thought I knew a lot more than I actually did; I think I’m kinda repeating the same type of mistakes, but in a different way.
The fancy swirls and layers and colorants are so appealing, I’ll just stick to less ingredients over all, especially when it comes to oils.
And tbh, I bought a bunch of stuff about a year ago, some of which expire in about 4 months, most of which are already part of the Holy Trinity anyway.

 

[Becky1024]

I’ll definitely keep both of these in mind!
I used a kitchen knife, but I realized I had a regular soap cutter. I remember seeing other people use a kitchen knife that was used exclusively for soap, but I didn’t realize it being sharper would be a bad thing.

A knife with a flat cutting surface works better than a sharp blade. Most soap supply shops sell them relatively cheaply if you don't have one. Wire cheese slicers also work.

 

[AliOop]

I used a pastry knife, aka bench cutter, for years before I started seeing them sold as soap cutters. Same with the mitre box. They both work very well if you can make straight cuts (I can't).

 

[TheGecko]

I probably should scale down in terms of complexity, I’m doing teeny tiny batches in order to just get a hold of the hobby and work my way into doing more complicated stuff like Royalty Soap and so forth; the idea of making soap has stuck with me for so long since my mom was so good with it and I remember making big batches of unusable soap because I just thought I knew a lot more than I actually did; I think I’m kinda repeating the same type of mistakes, but in a different way.
The fancy swirls and layers and colorants are so appealing, I’ll just stick to less ingredients over all, especially when it comes to oils.
And tbh, I bought a bunch of stuff about a year ago, some of which expire in about 4 months, most of which are already part of the Holy Trinity anyway.

Light and oxygen are the too biggest killers of oil. I think some of ‘shelf life’ is to get you to use up and buy more. I keep all my base oils/butter in the garage, next to the inside wall, in buckets. After having some Palm Oil go real grainy on me from reheating it all the time, I bought some clear ‘shoe boxes’ from the Dolllar Store and bottles I could refill for Olive and Castor Oil. I’d keep enough in my soap cart (aka Rolling Kitchen Island) to do a few batches a soap. That was I was exposing my ingredients to less containments. Other oils I have to ‘play’ with and in smaller quantity, I keep in the bottom shelf in the back of the fridge.

Since it’s been a whole…start with the basic again. In addition to 4” Square Molds that I use for testing, I also bought a 6” Slab Mold. Thinking some day that I might like to try some ‘fancy’ stuff.