Could someone here please direct me to some good links about hot process soap? I've mostly done CP but am considering HP for my F.O.s that I know accelerate. I have not enjoyed the few HP batches I did. Should you use more water to aid fluidity?
hot process
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dixiedragon
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Check out Soaping 101 on YouTube, and also Soap Queen.
https://www.soapqueen.com/tag/hot-process/
Hot process is pretty easy. I do add more water for more fluidity. Some people add sodium lactate - I've got some but I've never made the leap.
What part did you not enjoy?
One think that might be causing the soap to be thicker or chunkier than necessary is that it's getting overcooked a bit. Do you see white, waxy chunks on the sides of the pot? That's overcooked soap. It's not bad, it's just a cosmetic issue. What I've found works best is to bump my water up to 40% (vs the standard 38% in most lye calculators). I keep it on low in the crockpot for about 30 minutes, giving it an occasional (maybe once ever 10 minutes) blast with the stick blender. Then about 30 or 45 minutes in I am tired of waiting, so I turn it up. I don't recall if my crockpot has a medium setting, or if it's just low and high. by letting it cook at low, it gets almost to the threshold of Vaseline stage, and then when I bump it up to the medium or high temp, that nudges it over. I've found that has eliminated those whitish chunks for me.
https://www.soapqueen.com/tag/hot-process/
Hot process is pretty easy. I do add more water for more fluidity. Some people add sodium lactate - I've got some but I've never made the leap.
What part did you not enjoy?
One think that might be causing the soap to be thicker or chunkier than necessary is that it's getting overcooked a bit. Do you see white, waxy chunks on the sides of the pot? That's overcooked soap. It's not bad, it's just a cosmetic issue. What I've found works best is to bump my water up to 40% (vs the standard 38% in most lye calculators). I keep it on low in the crockpot for about 30 minutes, giving it an occasional (maybe once ever 10 minutes) blast with the stick blender. Then about 30 or 45 minutes in I am tired of waiting, so I turn it up. I don't recall if my crockpot has a medium setting, or if it's just low and high. by letting it cook at low, it gets almost to the threshold of Vaseline stage, and then when I bump it up to the medium or high temp, that nudges it over. I've found that has eliminated those whitish chunks for me.
I don't like glopping it into the molds, I don't like that it's fluffier and softer which makes me think (maybe erroneously) that it would not last as long. I do like the clean-up! I'm confused about the 40% water. You mean 40% lye solution? That would be 40% lye and 60% water? Yes I have seen Soap Queen's. Just thought I might hear from some on here that really like doing it this way. I'm also considering the addition of yogurt at the end of cook time for more fluidity.
If you let it cure well, longer than cp usually, it should last just as long as your cp with the same recipe does. I usually look at a 150% cure for hp over cp. So if I cure a cp bar for 4 weeks, it's 6 in hp. I think once you get passed 8 weeks cure for cp, the hp should also be cured out in terms of longevity, too.
dixiedragon
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The 40% is I think percentage of water to oils. The default in most lye calculators is 38%. I think yours might be "fluffier" because you are overcooking it and so it is thicker and holds more air.
SudsanSoaps
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38% water should be fine. Just cover it with Saran while cooking and stir it about 5-6 times with a spatula while it's cooking. I've quit checking temp but I'd guess it's about 180-190 when I add FO and put it in the mold. Mine loses about 7-8% of total batch weight while cooking.
neonstudy
Well-Known Member
You can do searches for fluid hot process. You should use full water (38% in soapcalc), or use other liquids. Add yogurt at the end of cook.
Here is a link that got me thinking.... https://ridgewaysoapworks.wordpress.com/2015/06/26/perfectinghotprocess/
I was wondering why we couldn't just add 7-8% more water to allow for the cooking loss and using the lid instead of using plastic wrap and throwing it in the landfill?
Does anyone know how much you can reduce F.O.s by doing hot process?
Some thoughts here and sharing my experiences:
There is a secret to the "countertop hot process" that is not usually mentioned, and that is you need more heat than standard water content lye solution will give you. To get it to rip and roar like the demos, I had to reduce the water content to start with to make the lye hotter, keep the oils at 200F, and add some sugar to the lye water. Sugar is a common additive, but it's not usually mentioned in this context.
Using around 33% lye freshly made with a teaspoon or so of sugar PPO, plus HOT oil (200F, no less) will result in very fast saponification and a volcano or two. It really does get finished in ten or 15 minutes, every time. Full water or no sugar, it takes a lot longer and you have to keep the heat going.
Needless to say, it's stiff as all getout, the yogurt and some glycerin plus BOILING water after the cook will get you nice fluid soap. Don't get heavy handed with the glycerine, or you end up with sticky soap. 10 or 20 gr ppo is enough. Use sodium lactate, either in liquid after the cook or in the lye water as it does indeed help with keeping the soap fluid after the cook.
As far as fragrances go, there are two things to keep in mind -- the soap will be much lower pH and alkalinity than CP soap when you add the fragrance, and you get much less "morphing" of scents. That means a HP batch may not smell exactly the same as a CP one with the same FO. Only way to tell is to try it and see what happens. The other things is that you can reduce the amount of FO, possibly by as much as half depending on how it behaves. Again, you have to test to see what happens, it's impossible to predict exactly what will happen. Some will fade anyway, like citrus scents in general, but a good rule of thumb is significantly less FO is needed for HP. I have done a few batches of CP soap recently, and my high lard recipes gel pretty fast, and are zap-less as soon as they gel, so I'm expecting less morphing of scents and less loss. Generally takes less than an hour, but even than short time exposes the FO components to high caustic levels for a while.
Fluid HP will indeed take longer to dry as you are adding excess water after the cook. If you soap at 38% and can't keep from peeking, you will get very stiff soap and it will dry faster. No effect on actual cure, and I don't think that really varies between CP and HP, the actual required cure time is more a matter of the fatty acid profile than the process of making it. I have a soap made from used deep fryer oil (used for doughnuts only, not fish or chicken) and it's getting harder and whiter by the week. I suspect it will need a long cure, it's pretty high in oleic and linoleic acids.
HP soap tends to appear striated for me, it always has differential texture sort of like glycerine rivers. I suspect this is just variations in the initial water content in the mold, but it shows on cut surfaces. Cosmetic only, but noticeable.
Adding enough water to get fluid soap after the cook will result in more shrinkage, and this accentuates my rather erratic cuts. The soap sets up faster too, and will become quite resistant to cutting as soon as the center cools down enough to set. More water after the cook makes it softer longer, but I can usually cut mine within a couple hours of getting it into the mold. Don't wait past the next morning, it's gonna be quite hard by then, even with extra water.
There is a secret to the "countertop hot process" that is not usually mentioned, and that is you need more heat than standard water content lye solution will give you. To get it to rip and roar like the demos, I had to reduce the water content to start with to make the lye hotter, keep the oils at 200F, and add some sugar to the lye water. Sugar is a common additive, but it's not usually mentioned in this context.
Using around 33% lye freshly made with a teaspoon or so of sugar PPO, plus HOT oil (200F, no less) will result in very fast saponification and a volcano or two. It really does get finished in ten or 15 minutes, every time. Full water or no sugar, it takes a lot longer and you have to keep the heat going.
Needless to say, it's stiff as all getout, the yogurt and some glycerin plus BOILING water after the cook will get you nice fluid soap. Don't get heavy handed with the glycerine, or you end up with sticky soap. 10 or 20 gr ppo is enough. Use sodium lactate, either in liquid after the cook or in the lye water as it does indeed help with keeping the soap fluid after the cook.
As far as fragrances go, there are two things to keep in mind -- the soap will be much lower pH and alkalinity than CP soap when you add the fragrance, and you get much less "morphing" of scents. That means a HP batch may not smell exactly the same as a CP one with the same FO. Only way to tell is to try it and see what happens. The other things is that you can reduce the amount of FO, possibly by as much as half depending on how it behaves. Again, you have to test to see what happens, it's impossible to predict exactly what will happen. Some will fade anyway, like citrus scents in general, but a good rule of thumb is significantly less FO is needed for HP. I have done a few batches of CP soap recently, and my high lard recipes gel pretty fast, and are zap-less as soon as they gel, so I'm expecting less morphing of scents and less loss. Generally takes less than an hour, but even than short time exposes the FO components to high caustic levels for a while.
Fluid HP will indeed take longer to dry as you are adding excess water after the cook. If you soap at 38% and can't keep from peeking, you will get very stiff soap and it will dry faster. No effect on actual cure, and I don't think that really varies between CP and HP, the actual required cure time is more a matter of the fatty acid profile than the process of making it. I have a soap made from used deep fryer oil (used for doughnuts only, not fish or chicken) and it's getting harder and whiter by the week. I suspect it will need a long cure, it's pretty high in oleic and linoleic acids.
HP soap tends to appear striated for me, it always has differential texture sort of like glycerine rivers. I suspect this is just variations in the initial water content in the mold, but it shows on cut surfaces. Cosmetic only, but noticeable.
Adding enough water to get fluid soap after the cook will result in more shrinkage, and this accentuates my rather erratic cuts. The soap sets up faster too, and will become quite resistant to cutting as soon as the center cools down enough to set. More water after the cook makes it softer longer, but I can usually cut mine within a couple hours of getting it into the mold. Don't wait past the next morning, it's gonna be quite hard by then, even with extra water.
Thanks...appreciate all the replies.
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