Hello from Williamsburg Virginia

[Susie]

Furthermore, if the OP can't take advice that IS TRYING TO HELP HIM NOT FAIL BEFORE HE GETS STARTED, then how in the world do you think he is going to do running a business? Do you think his competition (I do not sell, therefore I am not his competition.) is going to step back from selling to help him? Seriously?

If we fail to tell him now that we see big issues with his plan now, how do you think he can trust us to tell him the truth later? Would you rather we were "nice", and watched him fail miserably? Or maybe we should give him honest answers now, so he can trust what we say later?

 

[lenarenee]

There is also nothing to say that people cannot give advice, whether it is wanted or not.

I'm not saying what I'm saying to be mean. As I have often times stated, very few people will bother going through the hoops required to sell over here so I am really not trying to stop competition or anything like that.

Is it wrong to give really good advice just because it was not asked for and/or it wouldn't be well received? Not at all.

It is wrong to criticize someone and call him a sarcastic name because he didn't respond to the unsolicited advice in the manner in which we wanted him too.

 

[Susie]

It isn't that he did not respond in the manner we wanted him to, it is that he said we are judgmental and implied that we were unwelcoming. We are nothing of the sort. We are the friendliest bunch of folks ever to be on a forum...if you can handle the truth. If you are able to take what we say, not as a personal attack, but as information being handed to you to help you, then we will all bend over backwards trying to explain and suggest. If you can't take it that way, then there's the door.



"You seem to have missed my post of a 1 year plan we will be processing melt and pour sfic bases in the beginning and then moving into working towards the cold process at a later date once we have it worked out . In Virginia if you want to sell anything you have to have a business licence and you have to be insured . I did not in any way say I was going to start selling soap tomorrow or even within the next 6 months . To have a successful business you have to have a very well built foundation I chose to tackle the business side of things first . It is funny how judgemental some people can be when some one does not follow the main stream when trying to achieve the same result as their peers. I appreciate your opinions on the subject and respect your thoughts no matter if I agree with them or not.

Todd"

"Not sure how welcome I am it seems to be really chilly in here . I guess I will end the conversation here seeing as this is an I introduction area and I seem to have cause such a huge ruckus that my thread has become a two page beat down the new guy post.

Hope every one has a nice day ."

 

[IrishLass]

What's happening here is a good example of our forum 'culture', and not only here, but on other soaping forums as well, whenever the 'hot-button' issue of selling too soon comes up. It may be very hard to believe, but we're actually more respectful/mild-mannered about dealing with it here in comparison to other forums of which I'm also a member.

For the benefit of all, here is our forum stickie that addresses the 'hot-button' issues that are common to our forum and why they are 'hot button' issues, not only here but elsewhere as well. It's a somewhat new 'heads-up' stickie that we felt was necessary because of how 'hot' situations like these can become:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=56833


In spite of how 'hot' things get, though, please let us all keep it respectful.


IrishLass

 

[lenarenee]

Members, take a few minutes and think about a time when your in-law/neighbor/spouse came to you and said "you know, you're doing that all wrong. Do it this way."

How did that make you feel? And why?

Timing is important. Sometimes we have the ear to hear, and sometimes we don't. Sometimes our system of operation is working, and sometimes it's not. Giving advice when it's not wanted isn't helpful. Today, it was harmful and somebody who could have had a chance to learn is now feeling unwanted and unwelcome.

Susie, you asked if we should let him fail. His success or failure is not our responsibility. Especially when he did not ask for help. Even then, his business is not our responsibility.

I've lived almost half a century and until recently have been terrified of failure. During those times I either gave up or sought the advice of experts. And boy! Did I ever have the ear to hear then!

Then, if it was important enough to try again - I did. My failure was the best foundation for my future success.

As a child care professional and teacher I drastically changed my focus over the years. Failure is welcome. We observe, discuss, make adjustments and try again. Kids learn a whole lot better when avoiding failure isn't the focus. Failure is welcome when they don't get punished for it and have the freedom to utilize the problem as a tool.

So I suggest we don't get so wrapped up into forcing good advice on people who are not asking for it - and can't hear it yet. His success is not our responsibility - it's his. Making friendly suggestions is one thing, criticizing when unwanted help isn't accepted isn't.

 

[Susie]

lenarenee, I understand where you come from now, and why you feel like you do. Thank you for explaining that.

However, and with all possible respect, I am going to have to disagree with you.

This is not a case of whether he fails or not. That is indeed his business and his alone. To aspire to having a soap business is fine. To make plans is fine. To do all the groundwork (time, money, effort) of making a business when you have never made even one batch of that product (not even MP), is really not wise.

And while you can certainly ask what business it is of mine, or others, what he does affects all of us. It affects everyone who proudly takes soap to a relative who has tried someone else's bad soap, and refuses to try it. It certainly affects those who sell.

 

[McGraysoldtowngifts]

The difference here is I have not once said I have sold or plan to sell a thing at this time. The plan is to get the needed legal items out of the way and in place to make sure when we decide to start to sell our products we do not have a loop hole left open that could jeopardize us in any legal way. I could spend 200 hours perfecting the soap and in five minutes lose my house ,car,and everything else because I forgot to buy liability insurance or left out some other important factor in the process that causes us a liability issue. All I have done is start from the business side of things instead of the craft side of things. As I stated I have a control group in place to test the products before they are sold this is also in place to get reviews of the products so that we can refine the process and bring a quality product to the market place. I do not approach a business looking at it as a fun factor not that I won't have fun when we start to work with the melt and pour base I look forward to it very much. I have built 4 very successful businesses this very same way and all are still up and running 2 have been sold. This business is being built to help my wife have something to do with her spare time due to her being medically unable to work outside of the house . So there is no rush to bring our products to the market place . As I stated before I have no worries about using this as a steady income stream and I want to make sure my wife and family is protected from any and all liability issues that could occur . There are many people pot there looking for a quick buck and I n not about to give it to them.
I hope this is clear enough to help clear the unknowns from the waters.

I look forward to sharing our successes and our failures alike with you all because I can see the value in the information of most of the posts on these forums lots of great info to read and digest .

 

[Susie]

Todd- Thank you for coming back to us with this information! I feel tons better about you starting this business! I also think you are going to fit in fine here, because if you can weather this storm, you are going to listen to what we say, and take it as helping, not criticizing.

Welcome (no, a thousand welcomes!) to the forum!

 

[cmzaha]

Not being able to work outside the home, due to health issues, is exactly why my daughter started her business. She does melt and pour, scrubs, lotions etc. I do the outside selling at Farmer Markets and craft fairs, cp, scrubs and whatever I come up with. You really do not need the expense of insurance until actually selling products. As far as Melt and pour most problems there would go back to the manufacturer of the m&p, unless you actually add something harmful to it or a lot of additives.

 

[McGraysoldtowngifts]

That's nice of you to do for her I hope that is how this ends up for my wife .

 

[lenarenee]

lenarenee, I understand where you come from now, and why you feel like you do. Thank you for explaining that.

However, and with all possible respect, I am going to have to disagree with you.

This is not a case of whether he fails or not. That is indeed his business and his alone. To aspire to having a soap business is fine. To make plans is fine. To do all the groundwork (time, money, effort) of making a business when you have never made even one batch of that product (not even MP), is really not wise.

And while you can certainly ask what business it is of mine, or others, what he does affects all of us. It affects everyone who proudly takes soap to a relative who has tried someone else's bad soap, and refuses to try it. It certainly affects those who sell.

Thank you Susie for taking the time to try to see my point. I have no problem if you or anyone else disagrees with me, especially when done respectfully. I have valued the counsel you have given me and others over the years, and knew I risked insulting people with my unpopular view. Being insulting was not my intent. (End of comments to you Susie)

In general, I feel people here sometimes jump too quickly and too harshly before having enough information to form an adequate opinion. The new person's response is usually defensive and at that point you've lost your student. The teaching opportunity is over and they will go on to make/sell bad soap and continue to give the good ones a bad name.

I hope the derogatory name directed at the op gets removed.

And to the op: my comments were mostly in general and at no time did I assume you would be an irresponsible fly-by-night soapmaker. And I in no way meant to infer anything negative
about your endeavors. I just wanted to make sure you got a fair chance here.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I have removed the term and I apologize for using it.

My issue is not that you are planning on selling now. Rather, that you are not even making a quick batch of each now to see how it all goes and if you like it.

How can you write a business plan with projected profit when you don't know how the manufacturing side works? How long does it take you to make a batch of soap, package it and clear down? You might be able to get the answer if the 'you' means 'one' in a general sense. But then it's not a business plan based on how long other people need to make a batch, rather, how long YOU need to make a batch.

Is your plan based on making x batches a day? If so, do you know how many batches you can make a day? No, as you haven't made any soap.

This is in no way about you selling early. This is about you planning a business on a subject about which you know nothing. You have theoretical knowledge, but until you actual mix oils and lye you really have no clue about making soap. That's not being mean, that's just a fact

I can study skydiving for years, but until I actually jump out of a plane, I will never really know anything about it.

I just thought - what will your recipe be? How can you plan a business without knowing what materials you'll need? But until you have made a lot of soap you won't know which recipe you're happy with.

Which is why I suggest making soap before you worry about too much more on the business side as the priority. Keep it in focus if you must, but on the back burner and just make some batches here and there.

Edit -

The 'speaking to a friend or neighbor' analogy. My mother in law was a tailor until she retired. If I went to her and said something about being a tailor and she gave me unasked for advice, I sort of had it coming because I specifically went to talk to her.

Todd came here, to us. Anything he says that related to soap making and running a soap making business are fair game as he is on a forum about those topics, so one would imagine he came here for advice and to learn.

If he said "I just made a 100% co soap with 0% SF and I'm using it on newborn babies. Look at the swirl pattern, there appears to be some mottling - can anyone tell me if it overrated?" Would you actually answer the over heating question or would you talk about how that sort of soap should in no way be used on any skin, let alone new borns? But then that is not what he asked, so you're giving good advice that was not asked for.

What if he then said that you were wrong and he was right? would you leave it? Especially as others might well see it and think that he must be right as no one has come back, so I can also use that soap on my baby.

 

[McGraysoldtowngifts]

Thank you for your opinions I will take them under advisement .

 

[lenarenee]

Thank you EG, for removing the comment.

Was the above directed at me? (I don't remember making an analogy about talking to a neighbor)

The example about the safety of a helpless baby is not a suitable comparison. That is a health and safety issue involving someone who cannot communicate verbally, and giving unwanted advice there, to me - is morally correct. In my profession I've done it more than several times. I've also had to learn deliver the message with some diplomacy - or it falls on defensive and deaf ears and accomplishes nothing.

You said: "Todd came here, to us. Anything he says that related to soap making and running a soap making business are fair game as he is on a forum about those topics, so one would imagine he came here for advice and to learn."

Had he posted in the business subforum, I could agree with that. But Todd posted in the Introductory subforum. This is a soapmaking forum first, with a subset of that forum being for business issues. He hadn't engaged that part of the forum yet.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Members, take a few minutes and think about a time when your in-law/neighbor/spouse came to you and said "you know, you're doing that all wrong. Do it this way."

How did that make you feel? And why?

Was the above directed at me? (I don't remember making an analogy about talking to a neighbor)

I left out the other two groups, my bad

You said: "Todd came here, to us. Anything he says that related to soap making and running a soap making business are fair game as he is on a forum about those topics, so one would imagine he came here for advice and to learn."

Had he posted in the business subforum, I could agree with that. But Todd posted in the Introductory subforum. This is a soapmaking forum first, with a subset of that forum being for business issues. He hadn't engaged that part of the forum yet.

I think that it is a slippery slope to say that things posted as part of another post in one section cannot be commented on. In what instances does it apply? Constantly and without leeway, including someone asking for scent ideas and water amount in the cp forum when clearly scent ideas should be only answered in the eo section? Or would it be based on an undefined set of rules and we just have to guess when we can and can't break this rule of yours?

His introduction was specifically about his business, spending more time talking about that then anything else, really. He was introducing himself AS a business. There is no grounds to expect people to not comment on it, if it be welcomed or not.

You seem to assume that Todd's feelings are a priority for me. They aren't, I'm afraid. My priority is actually people other than Todd. If no one said anything against Todd's back-to-front business plan, people who first come might well see it and assume it is good information when it is clearly not. There is enough bad information out there that I want to make it very clear to new people that this is not a good way to go about it. Todd (and the other people) are of course free to do what they wish, but I as a person want to make sure that there is the balance out there so that they can choose with more information than someone introducing themselves on a soaping forum saying that they have never made a batch but are planning to do it as a business.

 

[lenarenee]

I was late last night and had a chance to see your last post before you edited it. I appreciate the changes and revisions to made to your posts, especially your last one.

Your detailed way of thinking and your passion contribute greatly to this forum, and is often a benefit to the community.


However I feel there are times when that passion drives you to questionable behavior, and your goal of preventing all possible problems in regards to all soap issues suffers because of it. My impression is that your good intentions get lost and your responses sometimes become more than inappropriate. My previous post commenting on having the snide insult removed had nothing to do Todd's feelings, but everything to do with how I feel you failed your duty as moderator. In the past EG, you've shown an admirable ability to correct your mistakes, and I hoped that my comment would remind of that. I was relieved to see that you recognized that too because we need your positive leadership, not your negative.

It might help you if I clarify the motivation driving my participation in this thread. I wanted to be heard. I don't need to change your opinion or anyone else's. I am part of this community; Irish Lass spoke of how this forum has a culture and I agree. For months now I've been alarmed at how some people get treated and I've kept quiet but it's been wrong to do so. My responsibility to this forum isn't to make you all behave the way I want you to - but to speak up when I think there is a problem. I wanted to be heard and have my right to do so respected. I'd like to use Susie's post as an example of that. She and I don't agree, but she treated my view respectfully, and I sincerely hope she felt my respect in return.

In response to your phrase "rules of yours": Not a rule of mine. As a moderator you set examples, and you have several times in the past directed people to move their posts to the proper subforum, moved them yourself, or addressed them in one subforum and then directed them to introduce themselves in the Introductory subforum. When that much time and effort is spent by a moderator directing people to categorize their posts, why would I not believe that the subforums are there for a reason, and we should utilize them as best we can? If we are no longer expected to categorize our posts, I'm happy follow suit. And there are far, far, more productive ways to try to save someone's business or future soaping habits than what initially took place here.

I stand by what I've said. The goal of so many knowledgeable people here is to educate with accurate information, but when that attempt t educate becomes derisive, sarcastic or belligerent and turns into a battle of "I'm right, you're wrong" then the goal is no longer instilling knowledge, but of winning a power struggle. Some people really enjoy the fight, but allowing it is a massive disservice to the forum.

My responsibility has been fulfilled so I'm ending my part here. I am grateful to those who have taken the time to hear me.