Hardness in use

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Moonday, you're an inspiritation! I'm fascinated by the story of your history and tribe in Armenia. My husband is of Armenian descent. His grandfather, with brothers and sisters, were smuggled out of Armenia in war time around 1910. He shared many wonderful stories of his childhood and the journey to America. I applaud your determination in soapmaking! The translation you have to go through must be very difficult but you're doing a great job at it. Your soaps are beautiful and I wish you nothing but success in the future! :thumbup:
 
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Moonday, I just looked at your original post again. Since I am pretty new, these suggestions might be total crap, so I hope some of the mavens will chip in with comments.

Of the ingredients you have access to, if I wanted a harder soap, I would use high amounts of palm/tallow/lard (you did not mention this, but you can probably either buy this or make it yourself from pig fat bought from butchers, if you need instructions, post here). For me, tallow makes the soap harder but a bit less moisturizing than lard.

Plus a bit of olive for more conditioning, some coconut and castor oil for lathering and bubbles, and 3% beeswax (got this amount from Reinbeau, who is a long-time poster here and has her own bee hives) for even more hardening. Something (very rough guess) like this:

65 % palm/tallow/lard
15% coconut
12 % olive
5% castor oil
3% beeswax

I know you wanted a harder bar, which is why I suggested the palm/tallow/lard combination. It might be that different mixes will be better depending on what you/your eventual customers want, but you can always change things as you go along. According to this recent post regarding beeswax - I have not used it yet myself - you might want to soap at a higher temperature and not do anything complicated if you use, it though:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=54031

As others have said, the longer you let the soap cure, the harder and better it will be. 4 weeks is the minimum, Dahila's suggestion of 8 might be better depending on how humid your area is. Also, I have a small fan that I keep turned towards my curing soaps, that might help a bit, as well.
 
Not Ally's suggestion is pretty good. Unless you are vegetarian yourself, I encourage you to experiment with lard and tallow. They are likely to be pretty cheap compared to olive oil, coconut oil, etc where you live. A 100% lard bar is actually quite nice. Not as bubbly as something with coconut oil and olive oil, but nice.
 
Not_Ally's right on the money, here.

Lard is magical. It's like the perfect oil for soap making, and the recipe above will make a fantastic bar plus give you a base recipe to play around with. This closely resembles what's in my shower right now:

55% lard
25% olive
15% coconut
5% castor

There's absolutely no reason you can't increase the lard and decrease other oils if you want to. Lard, even all by itself, makes a great bar of hard soap.
 
Or high-oleic sunflower if that's available instead of olive oil. That's another good choice.
 
Can you get sweet almond oil? My favorite recipe right now is
65% lard
20% sweet almond oil - sub in up to 3% beeswax for a harder bar.
15% coconut oil

And you can add sugar to the water before the lye for even more bubbles, though this is a very bubbly soap already. And really slippery, not sure why.
 
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This is the list of obtainable oils we were given:

Soybean Oil
Corn oil
Olive Oil
Coconut Oil
Palm Oil
Castor Oil
Canola Oil
Stearic Acid
Beeswax

Olive oil may be expensive, but it is the only real liquid soapmaking oil on the list. The others are not worth choosing over olive oil even if they are cheaper. What you are missing on this list is a stearic oil. Using free stearic acid is problematic because it can seize your soap, but it might be worth trying in a small quantity. From this list, the only feasible recipe I see is something like 30/40/30 coconut/palm/olive or maybe 25/40/35. Or hell, whatever percentages you want to try but not more than 40% OO. People are correct when they say you need to cure longer, but the recipe is important too and I think you should narrow it down to the best soaping oils.

Now, if it's true that you can obtain animal fats like lard and beef tallow, and you don't mind using them, this is a very nicely balanced recipe:

Tallow, Beef 30%
Lard 30%
Coconut Oil 20%
Olive Oil 20.0%

In this recipe, you could even use canola oil instead of olive if that helps.

I ignored the beeswax because I don't have experience with it in soap, but I assume it works something like jojoba or meadowfoam, so if you use a few percent there will be waxes and fatty alcohols in your superfat.
 
It's not important for me to use Lard and lard is very cheap in my area but I prefer to use herbal materials.
I use of Lard for test and was very good except it's smell. Because I use of herbal essences and forced to filter it myself hadn't any success by it.
I make two batch today by Coconut/Palm/Olive/castor in 30/40/25/5 and one by salt and other without it. I hope it solve this problem.
I had good experience with Stearic Acid in HP too. However it isn't herbal but I'm thinking to ways for use it in CP. I can solve it in my oils until 2 percent. Is it useful?
What acids help to increase soap life? should I search for Oleic or something similar to understand my work chart?
 
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It's not important for me to use Lard and lard is very cheap in my area but I prefer to use herbal materials.
I use of Lard for test and was very good except it's smell. Because I use of herbal essences and forced to filter it myself hadn't any success by it.
I make two batch today by Coconut/Palm/Olive/castor in 30/40/25/5 and one by salt and other without it. I hope it solve this problem.
I had good experience with Stearic Acid in HP too. However it isn't herbal but I'm thinking to ways for use it in CP. I can solve it in my oils until 2 percent. Is it useful?
What acids help to increase soap life? should I search for Oleic or something similar to understand my work chart?

It's useful to have some amount of stearic acid in the recipe because it contributes a certain skin feel and helps the soap last longer. 2% is not adding so much but it is better than zero.

Stearic acid can be made from either animal or vegetable fat. I don't know what you have access to, but for soap and candles we have switched mostly to palm stearic here.

Lard and tallow are better balanced than many vegetable oils and will contribute stearic acid without the acceleration problem, if you can find some that is usable. Here it's easy to obtain animal fat that is white and nearly odorless. I believe it is possible to render it like that if you use fat from only certain parts of the animal and use the right technique. I don't personally know much about it.

For long soap life, oils with stearic and palmitic acid are useful. Coconut oil also contributes hardness, but some say it shortens the life of the soap. That doesn't sound correct to me, but I might be wrong. Also it's important to use olive oil because other liquid oils can have a lot of linoleic acid that softens the soap. Oleic acid is usually the largest part of your recipe and it balances out the harder fatty acid soaps. It saponifies pretty well and hardens well during curing, but it can also get soft and slimy quickly in contact with water. It is found in many soaping oils, including palm, but the best way to control the amount is with the percentage of olive oil. Experiment to find the right amount for your recipe so it works well on the skin but doesn't decrease the life of the soap too much.
 
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Lionprincess posted an excellent tallow rendering method. I haven't tried it on lard but I bet it would be just as good.

Ask a local butcher to save and grind the fat for you. Ideally, it would be leaf lard (lard from around the kidneys), but that's not a requirement. The grinding, however, is very very helpful.

Here's LionPrincess's method:

Edit in a second to copy and paste my old post off here!

I take it and cut off all meat bits I can. Then I cut it into small inch sized pieces or so. Someone here mentioned baking soda to help the render smell, and another mentioned salt for helping get impurities out.
So.

I put it into a pot of water that's filled halfway up the fat. I pour a good half cup or so of salt into it. I mix oh about 3 tablespoons of baking soda into water and pour it on as well. It creates a reaction and releases carbon dioxide, so beware as it heats of spilling over. I did an experiment not using baking soda in the render, and by the third it still smelled extremely meaty. Whatever the reason, it helps a ton reduce the overall finished product's odor. BEWARE OF EVAPORATION, and fill with fresh water as needed.

I heat it on medium low for a good half hour, and then lower the temperature to full low. I simmer for, oh, 4 hours or more, until the fat looks like a gelatinous gooey sinus infection lol. I strain it through a sieve into a glass Pyrex baking dish, used cheesecloth in the sieve once but can't find it anywhere after I ran out, so sieve it is.

I refrigerate it for at least 4 hours or so. It needs to cool completely through. Overnight is best.

Look at the liquid now. Below the fat in the dish after its cooled, the water is a deep muddy brown and STINKS like what I would *think* a dead body smells like. I almost gag at this point when I go and dump it in the field for the coyotes to sniff out haha.
Once I didn't do this, and I'm assuming I used cleaner pieces of fat and cut most trimming off compared to other times, so you may or may not get this.

It looks like it's pretty clean fat now, but there's more cleaning that can occur, and I want it very very clean to prevent smell, dos development, and just the yuck factor of bits being left behind. That water was so nasty, and if it was that bad there's more cleaning throughout the fat that needs to happen.

Scrape any funk off the base of the fat disc and discard.

Pop out the solid fat disc and place in the pot. Fill with water to cover an inch below the fat, or so. This isn't an exact science, so close is fine.. Add about a quarter cup of salt and another few tbs of baking soda. Heat on low, and melt it. I keep it here for a couple hours or so. I strain it out into the cleaned out Pyrex. Cool for at least 4 hours. It just needs adequate time to harden completely through. If you pop it out too quickly, the bottom of the disc will still be water logged. The water beneath the fat disc this second render is a murky slightly tinted white. Very murky.
Scrape the base of yucks again.

I do it again. This time I use about between 1/8 and 1/4 cup of salt. Honestly I dump and eyeball it, but for instructions sake, start with these and make it your own. The water after cooling is a cloudy white, but getting cleaner looking.
Scrape discolored base.
I do it the fourth time. The water is almost clear after this render and cooling. This is how I know most of the impurities are gone. I DON'T use salt this final render nor baking soda. The salt may be what clouds the left over water in the above rendering, but I know it still needs the extra rendering based on the smell too. The smell is nonexistent practically by the fourth render and cooling. The water left beneath the disc doesn't smell either by the fourth time. Is four necessary, probably not. I just want a clean clean product if I'm going to do it myself and not purchase it.
Now is it necessary on bigger batches, yes and so is a fifth. If you're doing a lot at once, it may need 5 renders.
If you split your 5 lbs into 2.5 renders each, 4 is good. If you do all at once, use a big enough pot for the bubbles of salt and baking soda reacting, and plan on 5 renders, and potentially 6 depending on how little the odor remains.


So, my final render is clear water and smell free even after a remelt of my tallow I rendered. So I do this method.

OK. The pics are my FIRST render. My second isn't great looking, and my third is cloudy and still stinky.
 
It's useful to have some amount of stearic acid in the recipe because it contributes a certain skin feel and helps the soap last longer. 2% is not adding so much but it is better than zero.

Soy wax, like that used to make candles, is also a very good hardener at levels up to about 15%. Above that, it makes the bar waxy and starts to reduce the lathering. Soy wax also doesn't accelerate the trace very much, although you do end up soaping somewhat hotter since pure soy wax melts at 120 degrees.

For long soap life, oils with stearic and palmitic acid are useful. Coconut oil also contributes hardness, but some say it shortens the life of the soap. That doesn't sound correct to me, but I might be wrong

Coconut is mostly lauric and myristic acid, which is very hard. However, it's also very water soluble when made into soap.

So although coconut does harden a bar, it also makes it dissolve more easily.

Also it's important to use olive oil because other liquid oils can have a lot of linoleic acid that softens the soap. Oleic acid is usually the largest part of your recipe and it balances out the harder fatty acid soaps.

Any high-oleic oil can be used, including high-oleic sunflower oil, or high-oleic safflower oil. Overall, I'd choose the sunflower for the lower levels of linoleic acid, which can contribute to DOS.

It's entirely possible to produce a wonderful bar of soap with no liquid oils at all. 100% lard or 100% tallow soaps are both wonderful.

Personally, I'm big on olive oil myself. No recipe contains less than 25%, and that goes right up to 70%. But it can be rather pricey stuff in some locales and isn't absolutely necessary for great soap.
 
Soy wax, like that used to make candles, is also a very good hardener at levels up to about 15%.

I would hesitate to recommend this because there is no way to tell what you're using. There are all different degrees and methods of hydrogenation, plus in response to the issue with trans-olein they are sometimes using transesterification instead of hydrogenation. Thus there are countless different soft and hard soybean shortening products being manufactured, some of which are for sale as candlemaking material.

In terms of candlemaking soy wax, there are different melt points and compositions and the manufacturers don't tell you anything. When you suggest soy wax, someone could use something different from what you had in mind.

Personally I formulate recipes based entirely on fatty acid profiles, so I can't use an unknown, but maybe that's just me. What might be worse is that the manufacturing process forthese solid soybean oils need not necessarily lower linoleic acid levels that much, which is a big no-no for me. You always get more stearic in the solidified shortening vs. the liquid oil, but you don't know what else you're getting.

I agree with the general point if you can find fully hydrogenated soybean oil. In that case, you have the ultimate veggie source of stearic oil and you know the composition, which is about 11% palmitic and 85% stearic acid.

Any high-oleic oil can be used, including high-oleic sunflower oil, or high-oleic safflower oil. Overall, I'd choose the sunflower for the lower levels of linoleic acid, which can contribute to DOS.

It's entirely possible to produce a wonderful bar of soap with no liquid oils at all. 100% lard or 100% tallow soaps are both wonderful.

Personally, I'm big on olive oil myself. No recipe contains less than 25%, and that goes right up to 70%. But it can be rather pricey stuff in some locales and isn't absolutely necessary for great soap.

Yes, I use olive oil, but on a more routine basis I'm partial to HO sunflower. I was just focusing on the list of oils Moonday said were available.
 
I would hesitate to recommend this because there is no way to tell what you're using. There are all different degrees and methods of hydrogenation, plus in response to the issue with trans-olein they are sometimes using transesterification instead of hydrogenation. Thus there are countless different soft and hard soybean shortening products being manufactured, some of which are for sale as candlemaking material.

In my case, I'm using 100% soy wax, guaranteed by the company.

On the up side, hydrogenation levels don't matter in terms of SAP values, only in terms of the resulting fatty acids. At fifteen percent, even if there's plenty of linoleic left, it's not a problem--liquid soybean, at that amount, would only be adding 7.5% linoleic to the final recipe, and we know for certain that this is not liquid.

If you know it's a mix of palm and soy, use the palm SAP value to assure you aren't overdoing the lye--and realize that you're increasing your super fat a little bit.

In terms of candlemaking soy wax, there are different melt points and compositions and the manufacturers don't tell you anything.

That's why Eco Soya 120 is the recommended one, although Candlewic's Soy 120 base is also guaranteed 100% soy wax.
 

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