Fats/butters supplementing have question

[Desirae]

If I'm posting in wrong area please forgive me, newhich here and still trying to find my way around.
So I'm looking over different recipes for different bath and body products and I'm seeing more often then I like Amina fat oils, (lard/tallow) I like the idea of using the vegetable based oils, plus I imagine that lard/tallow would smell horrible not to mention here in the states ( from what I see this is a UK based website?), you can't just go to the local store or walmart/target and pick up a container of lard/tallow, at least I've never seen ithe in stores before, (sorry getting off base here) I'm already ingredients using coconut,shea,cocoa,mango butters, so instead of using the lard/tallow what butter (cocoa,mango,shea etc) can I use in place of and will give me for the most part the same ending result as using lard?

I already make body butters,bath bombs, sugar scrubs and soap using m&p, I plan to stick my hand in trying out cp this week (looks less complicated then hp) but I found what looked like a super super easy recipe to make whipped soap, looks even easier then cp and m&p so I want to try it this weekend, I found 3 recipe one calls for lard, the other calls for tallow and a 3rd calls for Palm oil, palmk oil is already a liquid form so I don't see how this person can say you have to melt it down (palm oil comes in a solid? I haven't even been able to find that only the liquid version) so anywho, I'd like to replace the tallow/lard with a vegetable based oil/butter, so what is in comparison to that?

Thanks for listening to my wondering mind I do that every now and again. But was best way to explain why I was asking. I've looked online but to no avail cannot find a website that tells me... use this in place of this, try using that instead of this, that will give same results instead instead of.... see my train of thought, anyone know of a website that give this kind of info?

Thanks for any and all help

 

[shunt2011]

Palm is a substitute for lard/tallow. Palm is solid I've never seen liquid form. Walmart carries GV shortening which is Palm. They also carry Lard. Lard makes a superior soap over Palm for me. I make both but prefer lard. No smell carry over unless you overheat it.

This forum has people from all over the world. It's based In The US.

If you read the last 10 or so pages you will glean a whole lot of information on Soapmaking.

If you have questions we welcome them. Make sure you run all recipes through a soap calculator so that you are sure they are accurate.

Wear appropriate safety gear (goggles and gloves) and don't mix lye in glass.

Welcome to the forum, look forward to hearing about your soapy adventures.

I've not made whipped soap but not sure it's easier than CP to b honest.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

I'm sure someone will come in with some substitution recipes to approximate lard or tallow with vegetable oils and butters, so I won't try to do that. What I do want to do is tell you to stop and wait for somebody to do that before you try a substitution on your own. Vegetable butters by themselves are not even close to capable of direct swaps for anything but another butter. That is, a 100% lard soap is a very nice thing, but a 100% cocoa butter soap would be very weird - if it's even possible.

I don't know if you have an ethical issue with animal fats, so I will also say that you CAN absolutely buy pure lard at Walmart and almost every good sized grocery. Depending on your area, it may be relegated to the Ethnic/Mexican food aisle and be labeled as Manteca, but its very easy to find. Tallow is a little bit harder, but Gordon Food Service (GFS) sells it here. It doesn't appear that Virginia has GFS, but it's a somewhat common fat for food prep so similar restaurant supply stores have a good chance of stocking it. Walmart also carries a shortening that is a mix of tallow and palm oil (along side their 100% veg shortening) that makes good soap and can be found in soapcalc.

If you DO have an ethical issue and want to stay 100% veg, it is definitely possible to make good soap. It's just not possible to do it by swapping a butter for the lard or tallow willynilly. I have one myself that I will post when I'm near my notebooks, but searching for 'Vegan soap recipe' should get you started.

BTW, just as an aside, palm oil should be solid at room temp.

 

[IrishLass]

Welcome Desirae! :wave:

Like Shari said, we're actually based in the US, but we have members from all over the world. I myself live in the US and am able to find lard at my local Walmart as well as my local grocery stores, but I've learned its availability varies depending on your region. Tallow is a bit harder for me to find so I've mostly ordered it online from Columbus Foods out of Ohio. The only place I've been able to find it locally is at Smart&Final (a restaurant supply store). Walmart sells some, but it's in a tallow/palm blended shortening.

If you want to make a veggie-based soap without lard, but which might feel as if you actually used lard, I came up with a blend of fats (on paper) to hopefully mimic the feel of lard, solely based on their fatty acid profiles. When mixed together/combined, it's very close to the fatty acid profile of lard (at least on paper). I haven't tried it out yet in real life, mind you, so I can't vouch for how it will truly behave or feel in product, but for what it's worth, here are the proportions of it: 55% palm oil, 30% shea butter; 15% olive oil. Combined, it should (hopefully) mimic the qualities of lard.

Re: palm oil- I've only ever used the Spectrum-brand palm which comes in a solid form, but from what I understand, palm can be solid or semi-solid based on ambient temperature. The liquid form you've seen may quite possibly be a fractionated form of palm oil.

I've never tried my hand at whipped soap, but hopefully those who have done so will chime in soon.


HTH!
IrishLass

 

[Desirae]

I'm sure someone will come in with some substitution recipes to approximate lard or tallow with vegetable oils and butters, so I won't try to do that. What I do want to do is tell you to stop and wait for somebody to do that before you try a substitution on your own. Vegetable butters by themselves are not even close to capable of direct swaps for anything but another butter. That is, a 100% lard soap is a very nice thing, but a 100% cocoa butter soap would be very weird - if it's even possible.

I don't know if you have an ethical issue with animal fats, so I will also say that you CAN absolutely buy pure lard at Walmart and almost every good sized grocery. Depending on your area, it may be relegated to the Ethnic/Mexican food aisle and be labeled as Manteca, but its very easy to find. Tallow is a little bit harder, but Gordon Food Service (GFS) sells it here. It doesn't appear that Virginia has GFS, but it's a somewhat common fat for food prep so similar restaurant supply stores have a good chance of stocking it. Walmart also carries a shortening that is a mix of tallow and palm oil (along side their 100% veg shortening) that makes good soap and can be found in soapcalc.

If you DO have an ethical issue and want to stay 100% veg, it is definitely possible to make good soap. It's just not possible to do it by swapping a butter for the lard or tallow willynilly. I have one myself that I will post when I'm near my notebooks, but searching for 'Vegan soap recipe' should get you started.

BTW, just as an aside, palm oil should be solid at room temp.

Thank you for your help I appreciate it. I have no ethical issues, I was figuring that something called lard would have a bad smell, alot of cp recipes I've seen usually call for butters I've only seen a hand full that call for lard or tallow, soap queen for example most of the recipe s call for butters . As for the palm oil I just bought some online from that soap queen website and what I purchased came in a bottle so it was safe to assume that it's purely an oil. Where can I find it in a solid form?
With the lard, if a recipe calls for butters should I swap it for lard instead or follow the recipe and use the butters? Just curious because I've seen very few recipes that calls for lard, and the one recipe that I would like to try calls for, palm oil, coconut oil, lard or tallow olive oil lye and water.

 

[Desirae]

shunt2011;610757 Palm is a substitute for lard/tallow. Palm is solid I've never seen liquid form. Walmart carries GV shortening which is Palm. They also carry Lard. Lard makes a superior soap over Palm for me. I make both but prefer lard. No smell carry over unless you overheat it. I bought palm oil from that soapqueen site bramberry I think its called & it came in a bottle s I thought that palm oil is a liquid based, so maybe it is fractionated. as for Walmart, is the palm oil just called GV shortning? where can I find it at? maybe spices asile? and lard where abouts can I find that, I must be looking in wrong areas of the store, ill have to look again.

This forum has people from all over the world. It's based In The US.

If you read the last 10 or so pages you will glean a whole lot of information on Soapmaking. I will look through those over the weekend

If you have questions we welcome them. Make sure you run all recipes through a soap calculator so that you are sure they are accurate. I have read this in recipes ive seen online, I assume theres a thread someone that explains step by step how to use the soap calc?

Wear appropriate safety gear (goggles and gloves) and don't mix lye in glass. I have a pair of safety glasses, are those ok to use or should I go buy goggles?

Welcome to the forum, look forward to hearing about your soapy adventures. thank you, I'm looking forward to posting reciepes and seeing what you ladies think of it and if I need to fix it before making it. all help would be great

I've not made whipped soap but not sure it's easier than CP to b honest. thank you

 

[shunt2011]

shunt2011;610757 Palm is a substitute for lard/tallow. Palm is solid I've never seen liquid form. Walmart carries GV shortening which is Palm. They also carry Lard. Lard makes a superior soap over Palm for me. I make both but prefer lard. No smell carry over unless you overheat it. I bought palm oil from that soapqueen site bramberry I think its called & it came in a bottle s I thought that palm oil is a liquid based, so maybe it is fractionated. as for Walmart, is the palm oil just called GV shortning? where can I find it at? maybe spices asile? and lard where abouts can I find that, I must be looking in wrong areas of the store, ill have to look again.



This forum has people from all over the world. It's based In The US.



If you read the last 10 or so pages you will glean a whole lot of information on Soapmaking. I will look through those over the weekend



If you have questions we welcome them. Make sure you run all recipes through a soap calculator so that you are sure they are accurate. I have read this in recipes ive seen online, I assume theres a thread someone that explains step by step how to use the soap calc?



Wear appropriate safety gear (goggles and gloves) and don't mix lye in glass. I have a pair of safety glasses, are those ok to use or should I go buy goggles?



Welcome to the forum, look forward to hearing about your soapy adventures. thank you, I'm looking forward to posting reciepes and seeing what you ladies think of it and if I need to fix it before making it. all help would be great



I've not made whipped soap but not sure it's easier than CP to b honest. thank you

The GV shortening is in the baking oil at Walmart as is the lard generally. Read the shortening can and it will state hydrogenated Palm. The lard is Armour brand here it may be in the ethnic section as Manteca. Lard is pig fat.

In my recipes I use both lard or Palm along with Shea and some others. Another good addition is castor oil. It will stabilize the lather. You can find it in the pharmacy section. It's used as a laxative.

 

[Desirae]

IrishLass---Welcome Desirae! :wave:

Like Shari said, we're actually based in the US, but we have members from all over the world. I myself live in the US and am able to find lard at my local Walmart as well as my local grocery stores, but I've learned its availability varies depending on your region. Tallow is a bit harder for me to find so I've mostly ordered it online from Columbus Foods out of Ohio. The only place I've been able to find it locally is at Smart&Final (a restaurant supply store). Walmart sells some, but it's in a tallow/palm blended shortening.

If you want to make a veggie-based soap without lard, but which might feel as if you actually used lard, I came up with a blend of fats (on paper) to hopefully mimic the feel of lard, solely based on their fatty acid profiles. When mixed together/combined, it's very close to the fatty acid profile of lard (at least on paper). I haven't tried it out yet in real life, mind you, so I can't vouch for how it will truly behave or feel in product, but for what it's worth, here are the proportions of it: 55% palm oil, 30% shea butter; 15% olive oil. Combined, it should (hopefully) mimic the qualities of lard. I will give this a try but as long as lard/tallow doesn't stink I'm more then willing to give it a try



Re: palm oil- I've only ever used the Spectrum-brand palm which comes in a solid form, but from what I understand, palm can be solid or semi-solid based on ambient temperature. The liquid form you've seen may quite possibly be a fractionated form of palm oil. I'm thinking so bc the palm oil I bought from the soapqueen site the palm oil came in a bottle not a container etc

I've never tried my hand at whipped soap, but hopefully those who have done so will chime in soon. I hope so bc I would love to give this a try, my kids would be thrilled to take baths with soap that floats on top of the water, theyd get a kick out of it

 

[Desirae]

shuntThe GV shortening is in the baking oil at Walmart as is the lard generally. Read the shortening can and it will state hydrogenated Palm. The lard is Armour brand here it may be in the ethnic section as Manteca. Lard is pig fat.thank god for the Walmart app, ill be for sure doing a search for it at my local Walmart this way I cant miss it, for the GV shortning do you think I should look it u that way or just search palm oil

In my recipes I use both lard or Palm along with Shea and some others. Another good addition is castor oil. It will stabilize the lather. You can find it in the pharmacy section. It's used as a laxative. ill admit I do have 2 bottles of castor oil, I ordered it from 1 company only for it to be on back order and forgot I had ordered it, so bought it from another company, less then a week later the back ordered bottle showed up in my mail, lol so now I have 2 and should last a while since not much is used, right?

thank you bunches for all the info, its most helpful

 

[Obsidian]

I'm a lard fan, use at least 50% in my regular recipes. Its doesn't smell unless you get it too hot while melting, warm it just enough that it turns into a clear liquid.
I much prefer the GV shortening over pure palm, its cheaper, easier to find and makes better soap. GV is a blend of palm and tallow.

Castor is generally used at 5%, thats all you really need to boost the lather. You can use 10% but I don't see a improvement with a higher amount.

If you want to use a butter, try 10%-20% in place of some of the lard/palm, too much butter can reduce the lather. I tried a high % of coco butter once, just as a experiment. Its really bad soap, hardly any lather and it leaves the skin feeling tight and waxy.

 

[snappyllama]

Howdy and welcome!

I'm a lardy-side soaper - it's just really nice in soap. One thing I figured out after trying a lot of recipes... just because an ingredient is humble doesn't mean it's not awesome.

A great beginner recipe:

20% CO
50% Lard
5% Castor
25% Olive Oil

It's nice in that it gives you lots of time to play, is easily sourced at grocery stores (look for lard in cubes or buckets), and most importantly - feels fantastic on the skin.

I've made whipped soap, but I feel it's more challenging than regular CP. You have to keep everything really cool and deal with raw soap in a mixer. Safety is my biggest concern when working with lye, so I would personally hold off on it until after you get a few batches under your belt. We had a whipped soap challenge a few months ago... http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=582374

 

[CaraBou]

I agree with snappy, and recommend a normal cp soap first as a baseline for experience. I participated in the whipped soap challenge and had a blast making it, but it does have more potential to splatter out lye and also it is harder to clean up. The whipped soap is nice and bubbly to use but in my experience, it dissolves much quicker. By all means, try it sometime, it definitely has its merits.

I'm another person who prefers lard over palm, usually between 40-60% of most of my recipes. Sounds like you're not afraid to try it so take a look at walmart. And just for the record, palm has always been a solid for me, but I've been soaping in northern climates. It wasn't until I left Alaska that I didn't have to use an ice cream scoop to be able to dig out coconut oil As for butters, I like using them but usually don't exceed 15% in any combination.

Good luck with your cp (whatever you decide) -- let us know how it goes, and post some pics for us!

 

[topofmurrayhill]

On the matter or solid or liquid, the "average" palm oil I buy is solid in the winter and semi-liquid in the summer. That's unless I get the 50 lb cubes, which must be something other that just well-stirred palm oil because it stays solid in the summer.

There are various ways that palm oil can be fractionated. In parts of the world it's the most popular liquid cooking oil, which is probably palm olein 56 or similar. You can use this, or the semi-solid, or the solid palm oil and get similar results.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

If I remember, some places sold or sell solid oils in bottles, which you had to melt to pour it out! Not sure if that is the case here

 

[Susie]

The Brambleberry palm oil is solid. https://www.brambleberry.com/Palm-Oil-P3210.aspx?Options=4965,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

"Palm Oil - Palm oil is produced from the fruit of the oil palm, or Elaeis Guinnesis tree, which originated in West Guinea. Currently, Malaysia is the largest exporter of Palm Oil in the world. Our Palm oil is physically refined without the use of chemical solvents, thereby reducing the risk of residue contamination. Palm oil is used in cold process soap to add to the hardness of the bar and is typically replaced for tallow in all vegetable oil recipes.

Palm Oil is comprised of liquid and solid oils. Because of this, it is important to fully melt and stir your palm until it is clear before using it so that it is the right mix of oils every time.

In keeping with our social and ethical responsibility goals, our Palm oil supplier is a member of the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO), an organization that supports sustainable palm oil production. For more information see their website here.

Note: Yes! These bags are boilable! Please make sure that you use our Double Boiler Maker so the plastic doesn't melt on direct contact with the metal of the hot pan. Here is a post about how to melt the oil in a double boiler!

NOTE: the 5 gallon pail holds 35 lbs weight of oil
Ingredients:
Botanical Name: Elaeis Guineensis (Palm) Oil
Common Name: Palm Oil"

Please note the bolded portion of the above. You must melt and stir palm oil to be sure it is mixed properly before using. If you are smart, you will portion out smaller amounts when you melt and stir it the first time. It is much easier to deal with smaller amounts.

 

[cmzaha]

Thank you for your help I appreciate it. I have no ethical issues, I was figuring that something called lard would have a bad smell, alot of cp recipes I've seen usually call for butters I've only seen a hand full that call for lard or tallow, soap queen for example most of the recipe s call for butters . As for the palm oil I just bought some online from that soap queen website and what I purchased came in a bottle so it was safe to assume that it's purely an oil. Where can I find it in a solid form?
With the lard, if a recipe calls for butters should I swap it for lard instead or follow the recipe and use the butters? Just curious because I've seen very few recipes that calls for lard, and the one recipe that I would like to try calls for, palm oil, coconut oil, lard or tallow olive oil lye and water.

Soap Queen wants to sell their butters. they do not sell Lard. My palm is solid in the winter and liquid in the summer. One word of advice if you try lard, do not use Farmer John Lard it tends to acquire DOS. I like a mix of lard and tallow, or lard and palm

 

[topofmurrayhill]

Palm Oil is comprised of liquid and solid oils. Because of this, it is important to fully melt and stir your palm until it is clear before using it so that it is the right mix of oils every time.

This is understandably what people feel, and it's frequently repeated, but it's not based on fact.

They take whole palm oil and fractionate it to derive that liquid olein that's used as cooking oil. In that initial fractionation, they separate the liquid from the solid more efficiently than you can at home even if you were trying to do that. Nonetheless, that liquid olein is still so similar in fatty acid composition that you could use it in a typical recipe and not notice the difference. You can even see that in SoapCalc of you compare the palm oil and palm olein listings.

So realistically, you don't have to go crazy with your palm oil, as it would be very difficult to affect your end result by not stirring enough. Just some casual mixing is okay. You definitely don't want to be melting more than you need just to mix it, as that's pretty bad for the stability of the oil.

Melting, making small portions and remelting those is pretty okay, but not necessary.

 

[Desirae]

The Brambleberry palm oil is solid. https://www.brambleberry.com/Palm-Oil-P3210.aspx?Options=4965,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

"Palm Oil - Palm oil is produced from the fruit of the oil palm, or Elaeis Guinnesis tree, which originated in West Guinea. Currently, Malaysia is the largest exporter of Palm Oil in the world. Our Palm oil is physically refined without the use of chemical solvents, thereby reducing the risk of residue contamination. Palm oil is used in cold process soap to add to the hardness of the bar and is typically replaced for tallow in all vegetable oil recipes.

Palm Oil is comprised of liquid and solid oils. Because of this, it is important to fully melt and stir your palm until it is clear before using it so that it is the right mix of oils every time.

In keeping with our social and ethical responsibility goals, our Palm oil supplier is a member of the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO), an organization that supports sustainable palm oil production. For more information see their website here.

Note: Yes! These bags are boilable! Please make sure that you use our Double Boiler Maker so the plastic doesn't melt on direct contact with the metal of the hot pan. Here is a post about how to melt the oil in a double boiler!

NOTE: the 5 gallon pail holds 35 lbs weight of oil
Ingredients:
Botanical Name: Elaeis Guineensis (Palm) Oil
Common Name: Palm Oil"

Please note the bolded portion of the above. You must melt and stir palm oil to be sure it is mixed properly before using. If you are smart, you will portion out smaller amounts when you melt and stir it the first time. It is much easier to deal with smaller amounts.

We'll I feel like an idiot lol I could have sworn that it came in a bottle, I must be thinking that bc the bowl showed a liquid it was a liquid, or I was thinking of a different site/compay. Thank you

 

[Desirae]

I agree with snappy, and recommend a normal cp soap first as a baseline for experience. I participated in the whipped soap challenge and had a blast making it, but it does have more potential to splatter out lye and also it is harder to clean up. The whipped soap is nice and bubbly to use but in my experience, it dissolves much quicker. By all means, try it sometime, it definitely has its merits.

I'm another person who prefers lard over palm, usually between 40-60% of most of my recipes. Sounds like you're not afraid to try it so take a look at walmart. And just for the record, palm has always been a solid for me, but I've been soaping in northern climates. It wasn't until I left Alaska that I didn't have to use an ice cream scoop to be able to dig out coconut oil As for butters, I like using them but usually don't exceed 15% in any combination.

Good luck with your cp (whatever you decide) -- let us know how it goes, and post some pics for us!

Thank you for the info about the whipped soap, I watched it done on you tube and it looked easy, but then bc it's you tube some thing must not have been filmed and skipped over to make it look easy. I will post pics. My main thing is finding good recipes bc 95% of the cp recipes I'm finding are all butters, the whipped soap was only the 2nd or 3rd time I've seen soap use lard/tallow, but nearly all recipes I see on bramberry and other sites use the palm oil. Any suggestions or know where I can find good recipes ?

 

[Desirae]

Soap Queen wants to sell their butters. they do not sell Lard. My palm is solid in the winter and liquid in the summer. One word of advice if you try lard, do not use Farmer John Lard it tends to acquire DOS. I like a mix of lard and tallow, or lard and palm

Thanks for the tip, I'll be sure to stay away from that brand, any suggestions on what brand I should try?