Dos?

[Cemetery]

Oh my gosh, one step firward and three steps back. I'm hoping someone can help, I'll try to give all the information up front, so here goes

Recipe:
3oz castor
18oz coconut
23oz olive
26oz palm
13oz sunflower
11.5oz lye
27.4oz water

Mixture of fragrance oils, which definitely speed trace, titanium dioxide, blue oxide and lavender oxide in top, sparkle mica line, orange lab color, red oxide and calendula infused oils for bottom.

I knew the fragrance I'm using drastically speeds trace so I separated the oils in half, and the lye water in half, both exactly.

The bottom sped up so fast, I had to glop the batter in the mold, sprinkled mica, then mixed the top batter. This time I suck to only hands mixing and after about 5 minutes reached thin trace, then poured in mold. Both top and bottom were in the pot swirls.

20 of 21 bars have these orange spots, deep cavities or both. It looks like the deep cavities weeped orange liquid. I just cut the soap Sunday after being in the mold 24 hours.

What is interesting is that these holes or spots only appear to be in the top sections of the soaps, which is the party that actually went smoothly. What happened?

Thank you in advance. All of you have been great on here and have helped so much.

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[newbie]

Definitely not DOS. They take weeks or months to develop, not 24 hours so you can eliminate that. I wonder if you got some separation, causing the holes and weeping. I see the light smears of orange in the bar pictured too which makes me wonder if your FO got mixed as well as you thought. Sometimes with hand-mixing, it seems thorough but isn't as much as you think.

We'll see what some other people think about this.

 

[Cemetery]

That's great information, and reminded me that I left one detail out. I added the fragrance oil to the entire batch of base oils prior to splitting the base oils.

So, I would think it would affect booths the top and bottom. The combination of fragrance oils contains a lot of vanilla which I know discolors over time, but the light portions still appear quite white.

Thank you for the quick response, I knew I was going to forget something!

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[100%Natural]

I agree with Newbie about it not being DOS. If it's not what Newbie said then it could be that you didn't reach full trace with the top layer. It will be interesting to see if it starts showing signs of lye appearing on the surface.

Any chance you reused your swirl tool in both batches without properly cleaning it between batches?

 

[Cemetery]

No, just used a clean spoon for both swirls.

The fragrance speeds trace so much that any stick blending and it becomes the consistency of gelatinous gravy, such the reason for transitioning to the hand stirring.

What would the signs of lye look like that you mentioned? Could this be caused by too little lye?

Thank you.

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[newbie]

Hard to say with the bottom because the colors are stronger, but do you see the orangey-brownish swishes-one along the bottom of the top half and the other on the left side? That looks like FO starting to discolor and it's happening before the rest, which was what made me think the FO might not have mixed in well. Plus the FO can have a different density from your base oils, just like your base oils have different densities from each other, so perhaps it wasn't as homogeneously mixed as you thought. It may have layered out while you were doing the first half.

The hand-mixing doesn't always cause separation or anything, but it may be with an accelerating FO that your soap got a bit hot and separated in the hand-mixed portion. Just thoughts, of course. Again, hopefully some others will come on and take a look.

 

[Cemetery]

That makes a lot of sense. Perhaps the fo wasn't mixed in the base well enough. The top part was affected because of the hand mixing. The bottom wasn't because I did use the stick blender.

Well, if that is the case nothing a little more stirring in the base oil portion won't fix. Hmmmm

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[100%Natural]

You're looking for what can look like soda ash on the surfaces. It is usually more opaque and hardens while the soap cures. Check the cut sides of your bars for it too. Any out of place white spots need a closer look. PH testing will give you a definitive answer for that though.

It almost looks like the FO separated and made itself some pockets. I've had that happen with honey before and I knew I hadn't mixed it in thoroughly and that is what it looked like.

 

[newbie]

It can help to stick blend the oils before any lye. I add sugar water, clay in water, sometimes the FO, often coconut milk to the oils and I always stick blend the heck out of it before the lye goes in because there is such a mix of different things (like oil and water!). If you split the oils and wait on one part, a good blending certainly won't hurt.

I've had soap where I was 100% certain I mixed the FO in well- mixed and mixed with a whisk and then I'll end up with FO freckles, like it just beaded up in the oil. Pisses me off every time- which is why I now stick blend my oils.

To check for lye, you can tongue test the surface or wipe your finger on the soap and touch your tongue. If it's lye, you get a little zing. If you just get a bad taste, it's not lye.

 

[Cemetery]

Thank you Newbie and 100% natural for your help on this.

 

[100%Natural]

You're welcome!

 

[Cemetery]

So after a bit more investigation, I realized that some of the the brown/ orange holes and spots have lye water in them. I explored them with a toothpick, picking away at some of the spots and the toothpick came out wet with a slightly oily liquid, I zap tested it and hello! Yup, that's lye water. The soap passes the zap test.

Does this change anyone's initial assessment of what the problem may be? Thank you.

 

[100%Natural]

I would say with the lye issues that it's more than likely that the FO didn't incorporate properly and that is what those orange spots are. It will need a rebatch to take care of the lye pockets.

 

[Cemetery]

Thank you, again.

 

[Cemetery]

I Don't have enough hair for this!....

So , bad news.

After the last batch of soap which I spoke about earlier in this thread, I took my time thinking about all of the ideas discussed. I have been racking my brains trying to come up with what I am doing differently.

I am using a known good recipie, running it through a lye calculator each time. I added the fragrance oils to my base oils and stick blended thouroughly. I separated two small ammounts, 13 oz, which were colored using oxides and mica pre-mixed in a small ammount of oilive oil. The batter was at thick trace (almost too thick for the design) because I was afraid of evrything not getting mixed together.

I noticed last night that this new batch is developing the same small holes, same as the last batch. They seem to be smaller, but still there.

They take two or three days to develop, they are not there when I cut the soap, 24 hours later.

I am so thankful for your past advice on the issue but I an really hoping we could get some more people to weigh in. This is the second 7 pound batch of soap that is potentially ruined! I'm losing my mind!

Thank you.

 

[la-rene]

How about explaining your entire process from melting oils and mixing lye to pouring it in your mold... I think there may be a step you are doing wrong.... I know that will be time consuming, but it might help.

Though, I just went back and read your first post... you are splitting your lye water and oils... why don't you try to put all your oils and lye together, then split your batch. You can split it when the oils are fully emulsified but not at trace. It will look creamy with no oil slick on top and will stay mixed if you stop stirring.

One more thing until you get the whole process down... is your lye water clear before you add it to the oils? And, where is your lye from, is it pure?

 

[Cemetery]

Sure, anything that would help.

*Melted oils in pot
*Mixed lye solution, using distilled water
*Once oils were cool enough I poured in my fragrance oils, approximately .5 ounces per pound of batter
*Stick blended oils
*Mixed approximately 1/4 teaspoon black oxide and red/orange mica into small amount of olive oil
*oils and lye cooled to around 110 degrees
*Poured lye solution into oils
*Stick blended to trace (thick trace, I was paranoid after thinking last batch wasn't mixed enough)
*Separated approximately 14 ounces of batter into black, and same into red/orange mica and mixed
*Added TD to remaining batter
*Poured half of white batter into freezer paper lined loaf mold
*Placed thin plastic sheet into mold and rested it against side, then dripped.black and red batter down plastic (swirling technique demonstrated in a soaping 101 video)
*Removed plastic
*Spooned in rest of batter
*Placed plastic wrap on top
*Put on lid
*Insulated with one blanket
*Cut 24 hours later

For the purposes of full disclosure, this is the second time this has happened. I've successfully used this mold with other recipes. Both times I used two completely different FO. The soap zap tests fine.

The batter was at such a heavy trace I want even able to properly execute the swirl. I wanted to make sure it was mixed together, but in the video she deals with batter only mixed to emulsion.

Previous replies talked about the FO not being fully incorporated. I stick blended them this time. Also, I have watched several soaping 101 videos and she adds her fragrance after the color when she needs a lot of time and only mixed by hand.

I hope this helps because both of these batches have been using my wife's favorite scents, and if I don't turn out some proper soap soon I'm going to be sleeping on the couch!

Thank you.


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[la-rene]

Ok, the only thing unusual I see is that, usually, fragrance oils/essential oils are added at trace, at the end of the mixing process. Maybe, the chemicals in the fragrances are interfering with your lye. Try a small batch with a fragrance oil that is not her fav (lol) and melt your oils, mix your lye, get them to the same temp. Pour lye in oils, mix until emulisified if you are going to split for color, then split or not... if you split: mix separately until light trace, add color and fragrance (split your fragrance between colors to the best of your ability if you are doing multiple colors), get it back to the trace you need, then design and mold up! If you don't split for color this time, blend until trace, add color/fragrance blend again until you reach trace again, then mold away.

One thing you could try with your fragrance if you are afraid of it seizing is pull a little oil out of your batch to mix it in. Make sure it is from your completely melted and mixed oil batch (no lye). Same with the color. It helps. You will definitely need to blend a little after adding these to your batch as it will take it out of trace if you use enough oil. Do avoid stirring constantly. Let the batter sit for a bit after you blend for 10 sec or so. Hope this helps!

 

[Stinkydancer]

Possibly your scale could be off- those from the get go looked like lye pockets to me. Any FO that was not mixed right into the batter always floated up to the top of the soap and made it look like it was sweating- not a hole. Maybe false trace is what you came into with that part of the batter? I would try a batch unscented and uncolored and see how long it takes your soap to come to trace. That way you can gauge what could happen when you start adding FO or color. You will know how much time you have to get the soap in the mold. Also, research the FO's you are using and see what other soapers say about them.

 

[la-rene]

Possibly your scale could be off- those from the get go looked like lye pockets to me. Any FO that was not mixed right into the batter always floated up to the top of the soap and made it look like it was sweating- not a hole. Maybe false trace is what you came into with that part of the batter? I would try a batch unscented and uncolored and see how long it takes your soap to come to trace. That way you can gauge what could happen when you start adding FO or color. You will know how much time you have to get the soap in the mold. Also, research the FO's you are using and see what other soapers say about them.

Good call... Never thought about the scale.