DOS! Worse with avocado oil?

[Lady Scrubbins]

Hi everyone!

I've been making CP goat's milk sop for about six months now, with pretty good success. Out of about 300 pounds of soap, I've only had to toss about ten pounds due to an incomplete mix of superfatting oils. Yes, I have been a victim of the superfat-after-trace myth, and it is related to my issue, I think.

I started out doing this by adding olive oil and castor oil after trace, at about 7% (5% olive, 2% castor). Never had any issues with DOS. Not once.

Then I changed over to using about 5% avocado oil instead of olive oil, and still using about 2% castor. Everything else in the base soap stayed the same.

Now, it seems like I get DOS in every batch. Tiny ones, no bigger than a pin head, but there are anywhere from about five to twenty-five in my five-pound batches. No amount of mixing seems to help, and the EOs I am using don't appear to make any difference (I mostly use patchouli, rosemary, lavender, spearmint, pettigrain, cedar and cinnamon).

First of all, I'm going to stop doing the superfat-after-trace, since it appears to be a myth, but I'm also wondering if anybody knows whether avocado oil has a higher propensity for DOS.

Thanks!

 

[judymoody]

Avocado oil shouldn't contribute to DOS. HOWEVER, I read somewhere that some "cosmetic grade" avocado oil is cut with other oils like soy or canola which are more prone to oxidation.

It would be helpful to see your complete recipe in order to trouble shoot. The problem may not be in your SF oils.

Also, you use goat's milk - what kind? Fresh, reconstituted, powder? The spots might be related to your method using the milk.

Finally, when are these spots appearing? After a couple of months or right away?

How humid is your soaping environment?

Are you curing on metal shelving or using metal utensils? Metals other than stainless steel can sometimes contribute to DOS.

ETA: I had to ask, 300 lbs in 6 months is a lot of soap! What are you doing with all of it?

 

[HutCar92]

I use avocado in every batch I make, I have some that are almost a year old and have not had any issues with DOS. I use around 5% in every batch as well, but I don't SF at trace.

 

[paillo]

I use avocado in every batch I make, I have some that are almost a year old and have not had any issues with DOS. I use around 5% in every batch as well, but I don't SF at trace.

ditto, only i use a higher percentage of avocado oil, around 15 percent. have some that are a couple years old, no issues with dos.

 

[debbism]

I too, use avo in most batches and I have not had DOS issues at all. even year old soap remains unblemished.

 

[green soap]

Lavender EO can accelerate DOS in some soft oils. Are you pretty sure it is not fragrance related? Do the soaps without lavender EO also have DOS?

 

[Guest]

Isnt DOS caused by high iodine rather than the avocado or rancidity?

 

[carebear]

Isnt DOS caused by high iodine rather than the avocado or rancidity?

DOS is the result of rancidity (oxidation) in your soaps.

The iodine value is not indicative of iodine being in your soap, but is the iron absorption value and is an indication of hardness. "Iodine absorption value for the oil. The lower the number, the harder the soap bar." http://www.soapcalc.net/info/helptext.asp

 

[LisaNY]

I concur w/Judy. If it's cosmetic grade AVO, then that could be your problem. The fatty acid profile of avocado is very good, and should not give you any issues w/DOS.

As a matter of fact, I just upped my AVO % because it has such a good FA profile and it brings a really nice quality to the lather. Love it!

 

[carebear]

I want my name removed from this forum. Number one, I was formly in dentistry with 15 years experience of working with the public, public health and a dental instructor. Number 2 I have pulmonary hypertension and cannot work out of the home.
Number 3 I have tremendous mentors and established recipes. I was uncomfortable with the switch in weight and molds, so I made the mistake of asking. 4 It will be a long time before I was going to sell. This business venture gave me hope.
I was an instructor of OSHA and many other things.
I would never put out anything that would harm anyone and have done extensive testing on what I have made.
I am also a member of the soap guild. I am on a pathway to certification.
Lastly, the people who want to buy from me are people who knew me before my life was ruined by this disease. They are waiting for me and my soaps to be ready. I am being given opportunities by others. I have fully explained to them about the process and the wait times and etc. In my post I was excited because I have an opportunity with someone who was going to give me a shot. So you can support me or not. But I am not an irresponsible, reckless producer or anything nor have I or will I ever.
I will continue the standards and prinicpals which govern dentistry in my soap.

Perhaps your mentors can explain it to you.

 

[Lady Scrubbins]

Hello again,

Thanks for the replies. Lots of info here, but you asked a lot of questions!

I get my olive oil at Costco (the grad A stuff). The rest comes from Wholesale Supply Plus, so I'm expecting it is cosmetic grade.

My 5 lb. recipes have contained roughly:

8% coconut (gradually reduced from about 15% over the course of several batches, replaced with olive oil)
2.5% Castor oil
82% Olive oil

Blended those with Goat's milk/sodium hydroxide slurry for about 30 seconds with the stick blender.

Then at trace I have typically added another 2.5% Castor and 5% Avocado oil, which had my EOs mixed in. I have used enough lye to leave the superfat-at-trace amount, plus another 1% or so. In other words, my lye calc targets about 7.5 to 8.5% superfat.

I have always blended as well as possible before my stick mixer burns up. I can get it almost to the consistency of finished custard, and I've been mixing it thicker and thicker because of this recent issue, but it has not seemed to help. My poor stick blender hates me.

I only use glass, plastic, and stainless.

For curing, I have some shallow trays that space the bars out on a piece of cardboard. They sit in a dark room that has no direct ventilation, but is not at all stuffy or humid; it is rather dry and the door is always open and air does circulate enough that you can smell the soap in the rest of the house. I don't think light matters, because the spots are inside the loaves, so it is always dark inside the soap anyway. The trays are put on shelves, not stacked, and there is plenty of headspace above the trays, perhaps six inches or so between the top of the bars and the shelf above. I've done it this way from the beginning, so this has not changed, although it has gotten colder and drier back there with the coming of cold weather. I thought dry would be better (?)

The only other thing I have changed is that I am now using shortening to stick my freezer paper to the sides of my log mold, but there is practically zero excess on the soap-facing side of the paper - I'm meticulous about the linings and I don't use much shortening at all on the back side either. There is practically no way any shortening could get to the center of the loaf, and certainly not in tiny, spherical specks. Whatever is causing it is definitely in the raw soap before the pour.

However, when I was measuring out my EO for a batch yesterday, I did notice and remove three tiny black specks in one of the oils (can't remember which EO it was, but it was not patchouli, I think it was the cedar). But I generally rotate them in and out, so I don't think it can be narrowed down to just one of them. But this looks more and more like the culprit, based on the geometry of the spots.

I also just saw a picture on another DOS post, and those spots were about the size of a pea. Mine are about the size of the period on a keyboard and they don't get bigger over time. They are a bit darker, not black, but a darker orange. They show up within a couple of days of cutting (I cut after 24 hours, my cutting wire is wimpy).

Yesterday, however, I did not superfat at trace; I will let everyone know if that solves the problem. It certainly makes it easier to incorporate all the ingredients.

And finally, to answer another question ("that's a lot of soap, what are you doing with it?"): I made a lot of soap and took some to a small craft show. My expectations were a bit too high, but I did rather well nevertheless - made 11 times the table fee; most of my stuff smells pretty good and people like the other qualities of my soaps -- lather, hardness, etc. Please don't chastise me for selling after only four months; I've done lots of small batches and had a couple of "educational disasters", but I am diligent and curious and it is going very well overall. I still have a lot of soap, though <sad>. But I wanted to do a show or two early on to see if this could be a viable business. So far, so good...

 

[judymoody]

Could the specks possibly be caramelized bits of milk from your milk/lye mixture?

Whether you SF at trace or earlier should make no difference with respect to DOS, if that is what it is.

The Costco OO is reliable so I'll cross the possibility of adulteration off my list.

BTW, 82% OO is practically Castille which benefits from a longer than normal cure, 3-4 months or even longer.

Have you adjusted the amount of lye you use as you replaced CO with OO? Your SF might be higher than you think.

Posting a photo would be helpful.

That's all I can think of right now.

 

[green soap]

I also just saw a picture on another DOS post, and those spots were about the size of a pea. Mine are about the size of the period on a keyboard and they don't get bigger over time. They are a bit darker, not black, but a darker orange. They show up within a couple of days of cutting (I cut after 24 hours, my cutting wire is wimpy).

And finally, to answer another question ("that's a lot of soap, what are you doing with it?"): I made a lot of soap and took some to a small craft show. My expectations were a bit too high, but I did rather well nevertheless - made 11 times the table fee; most of my stuff smells pretty good and people like the other qualities of my soaps -- lather, hardness, etc. Please don't chastise me for selling after only four months; I've done lots of small batches and had a couple of "educational disasters", but I am diligent and curious and it is going very well overall. I still have a lot of soap, though <sad>. But I wanted to do a show or two early on to see if this could be a viable business. So far, so good...

DOS that show up within a couple of days would be a very very bad case. Not sure if it has happened to anyone here that soon, but my worse case, caused by chlorophyll used as a color, did not show up until a couple of weeks. We are talking a full case of really stinky ugly unmistakable DOS. Milder cases might take a month or two to show up.

I don't think you have DOS, but as others said you should post a picture.

If you are selling soap that you suspect has or will develop DOS this is not only bad for your business, but it also reflects poorly on all cold process/hand made soap. Continued business depends on repeat customers. If your customers find that your soap spoils (DOS) within days or weeks of purchase they will not buy any more of it. Would you?

 

[LisaNY]

Yes, the Avo from WSP is cosmetic grade.

 

[Lady Scrubbins]

before cutting:

 

[Lady Scrubbins]

After I cut into it a second time, to check a spot on the other side, I noticed another contamination, this time a black speck in the middle of the bar (on the left). The original surface defect is removed and is lying on the paper in front of the bar. That one was a light brown speck.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

(my camera is not so good at close-ups)

 

[Lady Scrubbins]

so, now I need to identify the source of the contamination. I do keep good records of my suppliers, orders, and what materials went into which batches. Right now, it's looking more like one of my oils or my lye, and not any of the EOs (or maybe all of my EOs).

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to filter EO? could I use a coffee filter? Will thick oils go through that? What about filtering 76-degree coconut oil? How would I look for contamination in my lye?

Until I determine the source, I don't want to name any more names for my suppliers, but I will say -- since I already named them earlier -- that I never had this issue when I was only dealing with Wholesale Supply Plus.

And thanks again to all the very helpful replies. This is a good board. I understand the concerns about selling "defective" soap, and please be assured that I share your concerns. I'm building this business on integrity.

 

[Pepper]

This experiment may be of interest to you, Lady Scrubbins.

http://www.zensoaps.com/singleoil.htm

 

[judymoody]

Where do you get your lye and is it food or cosmetic grade? I usually strain my lye liquid through a fine mesh SS strainer before it goes into my oils. But as you use goat milk, that might be more difficult.

Edited for clarity.

 

[carebear]

before cutting:

That's not DOS. It's the milk. Or are you using honey too? Because it could be honey. It's unlikely to be a contaminant from the lye.

Contaminants usually come from dirt/residue on utensils, stuff falling into the oils/butters (big buckets have big openings), dust in your bowls or molds...