crumbly, soft soap - not sure how to proceed?!

[zazazing]

Hi there,

I'm very new to soap making and finally got a batch that unmolded cleanly (thank you so much irish for recommending the sodium lactate - that's the only reason this must have come out without sticking!).

I unmolded after 24 hours and tried to cut the slab in half to separate the bars - it was very crumbly and soft in the center...almost like cutting feta cheese. The outside looked fine and smooth and is pretty firm to the touch - if I press down, I won't make an imprint or anything.

The parts that crumbled off were like super soft dough crumbs - I could actually gather them up and make a patty with them.

I took pictures b/c now I'm not sure how to proceed! I'm pretty sure I measured exactly, but did I not use enough lye? Or if I wait another day will I be able to cut it? I should also mention this batch never gelled. It's a pretty standard recipe w/ olive, palm, palm kernel, coconut and a smidgen of mango butter and castor oil.

Any advice would be great appreciated. Thanks so much!

 

[soapcakes]

Beautiful soap! I have had crumbling like that from using too much sodium lactate, and for some reason, I can't use sodium lactate in my low slab mold, like yours appears to be, otherwise my soap is always crumbly, I'm not sure why!

It's gorgeous soap though, it looks like big slabs of white chocolate

 

[zazazing]

Thanks so much for the response! Oh gosh, I was hoping it was salvageable, but does it always remain crumbly? It's so moist too, so I was hoping if it dried out a bit more I could perhaps attempt cutting it. I used the recommended sodium lactate of 1 T per lb of oil - I was so excited to have soap that didn't stick, but now this! I wonder if I will ever be able to make a standard, normal, problem-free bar! Thanks again for your insight.

 

[new12soap]

Your soap looks great Go ahead and cut it as carefully as you can, then wait a week and see how it does. It doesn't sound like you used too much SL, about 1% shouldn't cause crumbling. I don't know what your ratios of oils were, but I think this soap will cure out nicely as long as it isn't lye heavy and doesn't zap. Since it didn't gel you may want to wait another day or so to zap test.

I don't know what a standard normal problem-free bar IS, but I am sure you will get there

 

[zazazing]

Thanks, guys! So I tried to cut the bars at 48 hours and it's just a mess. Still super soft and gooey dough-like and the outside turned white, almost like it's been spray-painted. I tried the zap test and it seemed fine. But I cannot get a good batch for the life of me! What I mean by problem-free bar is one that unmolds w/o sticking and getting destroyed, doesn't have bad stearic spots, and doesn't seize - every single batch I've made has had one of these problems! I guess I am learning w/ all this firsthand experience, but I hope to be able to make some normal soap I can share w/ family and friends w/o them thinking they're going to get a disease from it! Thanks again for your help - I'd be completely lost w/o this forum!

 

[Kansas Farm Girl]

What percentages did you use for each of your oils? Have you ever had this recipe work in the past? I've had some batches do something similar and time did seem to help them. If mine is soft when I try to cut I wait and try again later until it hardens up.

 

[zazazing]

The recipe is 45% olive, 22% coconut, 12% palm kernel, 12% palm, 5% castor, 4% mango butter, 7.26 oz distilled water, 3.14 oz lye. I've tried making this same recipe 5 different times - the only thing I've changed is the fragrance, the temp (anywhere from 100 to 120) at mixing, adding the sodium lactate and gelling/non-gelling. Every time it comes out differently and I encounter some new problem! Thanks for the help and giving me some hope - I will cross my fingers this batch will work out after curing! On another note, I notice that the soaps from the previous batches, esp the early ones, have barely any fragrance left. I used 1 ounce per 2 lb tray mold, so I guess I need to add more!

 

[ClaraSuds]

Mango butter has that texture when its ben overheated and it could be your problem. Why not make a simple traditional bar without all the fancy stuff first? Something like olive and coconut oil only or a straight traditional tallow soap. The less variables you have the easier it becomes and the easier it is to know what's gone wrong if something does.

The other thing I noticed is you list your water and lye as Oz's yet list your oils as percentages. Could it be that something is going wrong in your ratios? What were the Oz' of each oil and butter? That will help us troubleshoot.

I'm using tupperware containers and greaseproof paper for my molds. The soap cannot stick because it never comes into contact with the walls of the container. Theres a fair amount of wisdom in sticking to a basic recipe and shoebox molds. With such a setup, not much can go wrong. You can only get your ratios wrong or overheat. Problems are easy to fix and you have the satisfaction of a successful bar of (plain and unfancy soap) early on in your journey. My very first batch was a simple unscented vege soap. It worked perfectly and gave me the confidence to try scenting, colouring and additives on my 2nd and 3rd batches knowing that I already had success with the basic process.

Finally what exactly are you using to fragrance the soap? I use 1/2 Oz of EO for my 2.5lb batch and the scent is so strong it fills my apartment.

 

[new12soap]

I knew what you meant about a "normal" bar, I was just teasing because I have yet to have a completely perfect turned out exactly the way I wanted it to bar that I can make consistently. There are always surprises!

I would agree that you may want to simplify your recipe for now, until you get a bit more experience. Coconut oil and palm kernel oil have very similar properties and those 2 combined are making up a fair percentage of your soap. I would suggest something simple like 45 olive, 30 palm, 20 coconut, 5 castor, and forget the mango butter and PKO entirely for now. Also, if you are making a 2 lb batch of soap that doesn't sound like enough water or lye. What is your total weight of your oils?

Fragrance oils are usually calculated by weight of base oils, too. EO's can vary a great deal depending on which one, but most (not all!) FO's are usually recommeded at 5% or approximately 1 ounce per pound of oil. Check the supplier where you bought them. So, if you are using 2 lbs of oils in your soap recipe you would use 2 ounces of fragrance. Also some fade more, others stick better in CP soap. Sounds like you may be using about half the recommended amount.

 

[zazazing]

Thank you so much - I am going to try that recipe. I didn't realize the one I was whipping up was more advanced - I found it on a site as a "basic" recipe and thought it sounded nice! It has definitely been daunting for me though....

I get most of my fragrance and essential oils from New Directions and then recently I ordered some from Brambleberry. The ND ones smell amazing so I was disappointed that after about 3 weeks what had once been a strong smell, now smells like nothing. I guess I will have to up to 2oz - good to know! Did I also read something about fragrances sticking more when you don't gel vs when you do? I can't tell a difference so far.

The oils for the 2 lb mold are 22 oz - I used the mold calculator on this forum to figure the oils, but it actually came out to be too much for this mold. 22 oz works out pretty much exact w/o any overflow. That's what my water/lye calculations are based on. (I used the calculator on Brambleberry).

Thanks again for everyone's help. I'm very Type A with a touch of OCD so I'm really determined to get this right - the variables each time have been ebbing at me! I want to try this simpler recipe you recommended - would you still use the sodum lactate w/ this one? (I think the bit of castor oil tends to make it stick to the mold and the SL helped w/ that). I'm waiting on a new container of lye, so hopefully towards the end of the week! Thanks again

 

[new12soap]

Ok, for 22 ounces of oils, you were using the correct amount of FO, 5% would be 1.1 ounces, so it sounds like you got one that just didn't want to stick. It's a shame but sometimes it does happen. You can check real soaper's fragrance oil reviews here:

http://soapscentreview.obisoap.ca/index.php

You need a paid email account (no free ones like aol yahoo gmail etc) such as the one you get from you internet service provider, but it is very helpful to check which ones stick better and which ones fade, as well as any other notes like acceleration, discoloration, morphing, etc.

As for FO's sticking better with gelling vs. non-gelling I am afraid I don't know that, perhaps someone else will chime in.

Yes, I would still use sodium lactate at 1-2% of you oils, so around 0.4 ounces added to your water before you add your lye.

Another trick I have heard of (but I have not tried it so I can't vouch personally) is to mix all your oils except your castor, then add the castor directly to your lye water after the solution has cooled and right before you stir in into your oils.

HTH

 

[zazazing]

Oh, thank you! I was able to sign up for the site w/ my school email address - just waiting to be approved now. This sounds so helpful. I like light citrus-y scents and I had heard those do not stick as easily, so most likely I'll have to add more.

I'll keep you posted once I try the recipe. I'm too gun-shy to try the castor lye mix, but maybe in the future...

 

[zazazing]

OMG! Just got on the site and I could literally spend all day on here - it's amazing! Thank you so much for sharing this forum!

 

[Kansas Farm Girl]

I have never used SL, and don't have trouble with my soaps sticking. I use either a wooden loaf lined in butcher paper, a silicone loaf mold or 1 qrt paper-board cream containers. I think those have a wax coating because sometimes it seems like I have a very tiny amount of wax on the top of my soap when I use those. But is it so little I have never worried about it. I do have the most problems getting the soap out of the cream containers. I have to let it sit longer and dry out more before ripping the carton apart to get the loaf out. But that's not an issue, I have the room and time to let them age.

My preferred recipe is in the range of 40% beef tallow, 20% coconut, 30% olive and 10% castor, I adjust based on what results I want. I sometimes swap out lard for the tallow, cut back on the castor add some sunflower. I try to keep my oils pretty basic, mostly ones I can buy locally. I always gel. I tend to under-scent, too much scent in the air and I can't breathe. As long as I remember the KISS principle - Keep it simple Soaper, I do pretty good.

 

[new12soap]

Oh, thank you! I was able to sign up for the site w/ my school email address - just waiting to be approved now. This sounds so helpful. I like light citrus-y scents and I had heard those do not stick as easily, so most likely I'll have to add more.

I'll keep you posted once I try the recipe. I'm too gun-shy to try the castor lye mix, but maybe in the future...

Just make sure you stay within the recommended percentages. Adding more could cause skin irritation, and if it is a scent that fades it may not help anyway. For the fleeting citrus scents try adding 1 tsp cornstarch, that can help to "anchor" the fragrance.

 

[zazazing]

Okay, my lye just came today so I was going to attempt another batch tonight. Cornstarch? In what ratio/quantity and when? That's a new one I've never heard - interesting. Thanks again!

 

[new12soap]

Okay, my lye just came today so I was going to attempt another batch tonight. Cornstarch? In what ratio/quantity and when? That's a new one I've never heard - interesting. Thanks again!

1 level teaspoon per pound of oils, and I have no idea what is the best way to do it. I have stickblended it into my warm oils before adding my lye, and I have also mixed it with my additives to put in after the cook (HP) before pouring into the mold. It does seem to help, worth a try. HTH

 

[SoSoapy]

On another note, I notice that the soaps from the previous batches, esp the early ones, have barely any fragrance left. I used 1 ounce per 2 lb tray mold, so I guess I need to add more!

when did you add the fragrance, (because some of the f/o's have low flashpoints) or maybe the f/o just wasn't a good quality fragrance for soap

 

[zazazing]

I've just made the new batch w/ the simpler recipe. I didn't see the message regarding the cornstarch in time, but I'll try it next time if this batch comes out. I did 4 lbs for 2 2lb molds. Everything so far was okay - I just peeped on the molds under the towelsand it looks like it's just starting to gel in the centers although I poured them almost 4 hours ago. I really hope it reaches all the edges. I'll take pics if it comes out - fingers crossed!

SoSoapy, I've only ever added fragrance and essential oils by hand stirring right after reaching trace and right before pouring into the mold tray. I usually soap around 110. The ones that faded seem to be all the ones from New Directions Aromatics - ruby grapefruit, bergamot, white grapefruit and almond. I notice the smell is slightly stronger in the ones that didn't gel, but I think I need to always gel b/c the ungelled ones have the worst stearic spots (although the color is much nicer).

Thanks again - I'll keep you posted

 

[ClaraSuds]

I don't know about New Directions in your country, but I buy from ND in Australia and they state on the AU site that their fragrance oils are not suitable for CP soaps.