Cream Soap Questions and Possible Experiment

[Nate5700]

Hello all, I'm new to the forum. I started making soap about 3 weeks ago and done a few batches of hard soap. I'm impatient and didn't exactly wait long enough for curing before trying some of my creations, but aside from the bars not being as hard as they could be I've been pretty happy with what I've made so far.

So I'm posting here because I'm sort of fascinated by the idea of a cream soap. I think this may be because I used some Taylor of Old Bond Street shaving soap a while back, which was basically what I would understand to be a cream soap, and it was excellent. I'd like to make something similar, or just have something that would make a nice hand soap as well.

So I saw the thread "Cream Soap Calculator" a little further down and there was some good discussion on cream soap and it answered some of my questions. But there are still some things that I don't get. So here we go:

Glycerin: Pretty much every cream soap recipe I've come across uses a lot of it. Why exactly is it so necessary? I've read that stearic acid has skin drying properties so I sort of assume that the purpose of the glycerin, at least in part, is to counteract that. If you (somehow) could make a cream soap without stearic acid, would the glycerin still be necessary?

Stearic acid: I gathered from the other thread that you want cream soap to be high in the stearic/palmitic acids. It seemed like the reason for this is that it will hold the soap together better as it will want to separate. So using the stearic acid seems to make sense. It just seems so...synthetic...to use pure stearic acid. "All natural" isn't actually the highest thing on my priority list, but I do sort of like the idea that so far I've made all my soap with oils that I can find on the shelf at Walmart. Thinking out loud now, perhaps I could put a high percentage of shea butter in the recipe (don't think they have it at Walmart but I just ordered some on Amazon, close enough right?). But ultimately because I've been happy with my bar soap, I want to make a soap that's very similar, just in a soft form. According to the calculators it's higher on the oleic side which according to the other thread gives you a slimy feel and tends to separate. So after those meandering thoughts, I come to this...

Experimenting: What I'd like to do is an experiment with emulsifying wax and beeswax. Basically I want to use my normal recipe, but with KOH at a 3:1 ratio with NaOH. I would use emulsifying wax (I'm thinking about 2% of the total recipe) to hold it together and hope that it doesn't separate. Because of the slimy feel, I want to try beeswax at about 3% of the base oils to see if that counteracts the slimy some. I wanted to put this out there because, though I'm an engineer and love science experiments, I want to know if I'm totally doomed to failure before wasting my ingredients. And if I do do this, I have one further question...

Hot Vs. Cold Process: Most cream soap recipes I've come across use a hot process, which I haven't ventured into yet. I did see one that was basically a cold process but started mixing at 140+ degrees instead of the 100-110 that I've been doing on my hard soap (and this would basically be necessary to try the waxes). Is there another reason most cream soap recipes are hot process? Could a (warmer) cold process still be used?

Sorry for the meandering post, but I wanted to get my thoughts out there so my questions can be totally understood. I appreciate any help you folks can provide.

 

[Misschief]

One (long) thread that may be of interest to you is this one:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/my-first-shaving-soap-is-a-success.34264/

It's a long read but there's a ton of good information in it.

 

[Nate5700]

Wow, that looks to be the master thread on shaving soap! I started reading it but I figure I'll peruse it on and off over the course of a few days since there's so much there.

For my initial experiment I was just going to try my regular base oils in their original proportions. To do a shaving soap, from what I've read it sounds like I'd want to cut back the olive oil and up the coconut and castor oils. But if I can't make my experiment work I may have to break down and buy some stearic acid. And from reading that thread it sounds like you can't do stearic acid cold-process. May need to break out the Crock-Pot and learn HP.

One additional question to add to what I've already asked: What is the purpose of the supercream? I read somewhere that you don't superfat a cream soap, so it seemed like the supercream was to neutralize any excess lye. But then I read that you do superfat a cream soap, so I don't really know what the supercream is for.

I've been tinkering with my experimental recipe in SoapMaker all day, and I think I have something I want to try, but figuring out the supercream is the final piece.

 

[DeeAnna]

The supercream is a thickening agent. It's not the same thing as the superfat.

When you use stearic acid up front to make the soap, the superfat is not going to be any of this stearic acid. Stearic acid, being a fatty acid not a fat, reacts very quickly and easily with NaOH and KOH, so it will be entirely converted into soap. The superfat is going to be composed of fats.

The supercream is essentially more stearic acid added after saponification. This supercream stearic acid is used thicken the soap and modify its texture, just like you'd use stearic acid to thicken a lotion. This stearic acid doesn't get turned into soap, so it's not included in the soap recipe calculations.

The name "supercream" is unfortunate, but it's what everyone calls it, so I guess we're stuck with it.

I'm not sure why you'd want to add e-wax to cream soap, since the soap itself is an emulsifier. But give it a try and see what you think.

 

[Andrew]

Hello all, I'm new to the forum. I started making soap about 3 weeks ago and done a few batches of hard soap. I'm impatient and didn't exactly wait long enough for curing before trying some of my creations, but aside from the bars not being as hard as they could be I've been pretty happy with what I've made so far.

So I'm posting here because I'm sort of fascinated by the idea of a cream soap. I think this may be because I used some Taylor of Old Bond Street shaving soap a while back, which was basically what I would understand to be a cream soap, and it was excellent. I'd like to make something similar, or just have something that would make a nice hand soap as well.

So I saw the thread "Cream Soap Calculator" a little further down and there was some good discussion on cream soap and it answered some of my questions. But there are still some things that I don't get. So here we go:

Glycerin: Pretty much every cream soap recipe I've come across uses a lot of it. Why exactly is it so necessary? I've read that stearic acid has skin drying properties so I sort of assume that the purpose of the glycerin, at least in part, is to counteract that. If you (somehow) could make a cream soap without stearic acid, would the glycerin still be necessary?

Stearic acid: I gathered from the other thread that you want cream soap to be high in the stearic/palmitic acids. It seemed like the reason for this is that it will hold the soap together better as it will want to separate. So using the stearic acid seems to make sense. It just seems so...synthetic...to use pure stearic acid. "All natural" isn't actually the highest thing on my priority list, but I do sort of like the idea that so far I've made all my soap with oils that I can find on the shelf at Walmart. Thinking out loud now, perhaps I could put a high percentage of shea butter in the recipe (don't think they have it at Walmart but I just ordered some on Amazon, close enough right?). But ultimately because I've been happy with my bar soap, I want to make a soap that's very similar, just in a soft form. According to the calculators it's higher on the oleic side which according to the other thread gives you a slimy feel and tends to separate. So after those meandering thoughts, I come to this...

Experimenting: What I'd like to do is an experiment with emulsifying wax and beeswax. Basically I want to use my normal recipe, but with KOH at a 3:1 ratio with NaOH. I would use emulsifying wax (I'm thinking about 2% of the total recipe) to hold it together and hope that it doesn't separate. Because of the slimy feel, I want to try beeswax at about 3% of the base oils to see if that counteracts the slimy some. I wanted to put this out there because, though I'm an engineer and love science experiments, I want to know if I'm totally doomed to failure before wasting my ingredients. And if I do do this, I have one further question...

Hot Vs. Cold Process: Most cream soap recipes I've come across use a hot process, which I haven't ventured into yet. I did see one that was basically a cold process but started mixing at 140+ degrees instead of the 100-110 that I've been doing on my hard soap (and this would basically be necessary to try the waxes). Is there another reason most cream soap recipes are hot process? Could a (warmer) cold process still be used?

Sorry for the meandering post, but I wanted to get my thoughts out there so my questions can be totally understood. I appreciate any help you folks can provide.

Glycerin absorbs water and makes a nice post shave feel on the skin. It has a nice feel to it that does more than counter acting the drying effect of stearic acid. Glycerin is not necessary, but highly recommended.

if you want to make a soap softer, manipulate the KOH/NaOH ratio.

don't use emulsifying wax.

stearic acid has a melting temp of ~140 so you need to soap hotter so it doesn't seize.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...you need to soap hotter so it doesn't seize...."

You soap hotter with stearic acid to keep the stearic acid melted, not to keep the soap from seizing.

Stearic acid will cause the soap to seize because fatty acids react very quickly with alkali. That is why people normally use a hot process method to make soap with fatty acids -- seizing creates problems only when soaping with a cold process method, not with HP.

I'm not quite sure what the OP is after -- info about cream soap or about shave soap. Shave soap is a type of cream soap, but not all cream soap is shave soap. Just as ketchup contains tomato sauce, but not all tomato sauce is ketchup. So ... advice will differ depending on the OPs focus. Can you clarify, @Nate5700 ?

 

[Nate5700]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

OK, so some clarifications: I want to learn to make cream soap, so I can eventually make a shave soap, which is a type of cream soap. If that makes sense.

My original point was that I wanted to try to make it without or with a low amount of stearic acid. That was the point of the ewax - to hold the soap together since it's fatty acid profile would be conducive to separating. I would use less than what you would typically use in other products, because the soap itself is an emulsifier.

I get the difference between the supercream and the superfat, what I was trying to express was that I didn't understand the purpose of the supercream. So, the question now is, can you or can you not superfat a cream soap? I've heard it both ways. I would rather superfat than not, I don't want the soap to be too drying and I don't want excess lye in my soap.

I spent a good part of yesterday tinkering with recipes in SoapMaker, and I've got a couple of things I want to try, one as a general soap and one as a shaving soap. Both use stearic acid but in lower amounts than I've seen in other recipes. I can give you the exact proportions when I get home, but if I remember right I came up with the stearic acid as about 20% of the total base oils. I've decided to go ahead and do the hot process and a supercream, using glycerin in proportion to the amount of stearic acid based on what I've seen in other recipes. Basically I want to do this as "correctly" as possible so I can pinpoint the actual recipe as the cause if it does fail.

So, should I take the ewax out of the recipes? I'm thinking it may still be needed because of the low proportion of stearic acid, but the reaction here seems to imply that it either is unnecessary or even undesirable.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I want to learn to make cream soap, so I can eventually make a shave soap, which is a type of cream soap. If that makes sense...."

I can see why you might think that, but honestly shave soap and cream soap, while they have some things in common, are quite different in other respects. Generic cream soap is often used an ingredient in bath-and-beauty products. It's not normally used directly as a finished product. Shave soap is an end-use product that is used directly for grooming.

From my perspective, having made both -- if your goal is to make ketchup (shave soap), I'd recommend you start with ketchup (shave soap). No point in worrying about the more generic tomato sauce if ketchup is what you really want to make.

I already defined the diff between superfat and supercream. You can do one or the other or both depending on your goals. Most cream soap has supercream and superfat. Typical shave soap does not have supercream, but it should have superfat.

"...the point of the ewax - to hold the soap together since it's fatty acid profile would be conducive to separating..."

I don't know of anyone who uses e-wax in soap. Not to say it's never done, just that I haven't heard of anyone doing that. If you haven't made much soap, I would suggest you try to just make shave soap as is typically done, learn what it's all about, and then get experimental.

An emulsifier is used to make a chemically stable mixture of hydrophilic (water loving) ingredients and hydrophobic (oil loving) ingredients. If oleic soap separates out of stearic soap, I'm not quite sure an emulsifier will work to ensure these slightly different types of soap remain a homogeneous mixture. IMO, it's not the same situation as making an emulsion of oil and water.

 

[Nate5700]

Generic cream soap is often used an ingredient in bath-and-beauty products. It's not normally used directly as a finished product.

Useful information. Sorry if my questions were confusing, I guess I wasn't being clear enough in what my goals were. I'm interested in making shaving soap, yes, but I was kind of thinking a cream soap might make a nice hand soap at the sink, so I thought I'd try to make a more "general use" product first. I didn't really know that would be unusual.

From my perspective, having made both -- if your goal is to make ketchup (shave soap), I'd recommend you start with ketchup (shave soap). No point in worrying about the more generic tomato sauce if ketchup is what you really want to make.

I can see the logic in that, if the differences are as significant as you suggest. The shaving soap may be more useful in the long run. (Though if I made shaving soap, I'd actually have to, you know, shave. I've been wearing a beard for a couple of years, but with summer coming up it might be time for a change.)

I already defined the diff between superfat and supercream. You can do one or the other or both depending on your goals. Most cream soap has supercream and superfat. Typical shave soap does not have supercream, but it should have superfat.

I think this answers my question then, you actually do superfat a cream soap, or a shave soap. That makes me feel better. But on the supercream, you suggest this wouldn't be used in a shave soap. Any reason why? I guess if it's used as a thickening agent it might not be necessary since you lather it up with a brush before putting it on your face. I do remember the shave soap I used before being fairly thick, but I guess it doesn't have to be...

An emulsifier is used to make a chemically stable mixture of hydrophilic (water loving) ingredients and hydrophobic (oil loving) ingredients. If oleic soap separates out of stearic soap, I'm not quite sure an emulsifier will work to ensure these slightly different types of soap remain a homogeneous mixture. IMO, it's not the same situation as making an emulsion of oil and water.

OK, I think I'm understanding better. What I was imagining was the excess fat from the superfat separating out of the soap without an emulsifier. I guess in retrospect that makes less sense since as previously stated, the soap itself would be the emulsifier. So if oleic soap separates from stearic soap, it makes more sense that high percentages of stearic acid would be used to keep the mixture more homogeneous. Even so, you aren't using 100% stearic acid so what keeps the other types from separating?

 

[DeeAnna]

I personally wouldn't use a cream soap at the sink. All that stearic gives it an odd waxy feel, and it's hard to rinse off the skin within a reasonable time. I mean think about shave soap lather and how it's hard to rinse -- you want that kind of lather to protect the skin when shaving. OTOH, you want nice bubbly lather and good rinsability in a bathing soap. You'd be better off making good bar soap or liquid soap for handwashing or bathing.

Why supercream in cream soap but not in shave soap? Cream soap is generally made into a thick but stirrable paste. The supercream and the large amount of glycerin aids in getting that texture. Shave soap is either a thick not-pourable paste or a bar of varying hardness. It might be soft-ish, but you don't necessarily expect or want it to be stirrable or pourable.

Unless you do something really outrageous, no, the superfat doesn't separate from the main body of cream soap. The soap itself can separate into it's constituent types -- oleic type soap and stearic type soap. If the oleic soap content is low, it won't separate. If the oleic soap content is high enough, it may, given some time. I'm simplifying a bit here, but I'm trying to give you a reasonably accurate general overview.

 

[Nate5700]

Thanks for your replies DeeAnna. I do remember the shave soap being a paste that wouldn't be pourable. So from what you're saying you wouldn't supercream if you want that kind of texture.

Unless you do something really outrageous, no, the superfat doesn't separate from the main body of cream soap. The soap itself can separate into it's constituent types -- oleic type soap and stearic type soap. If the oleic soap content is low, it won't separate. If the oleic soap content is high enough, it may, given some time. I'm simplifying a bit here, but I'm trying to give you a reasonably accurate general overview.

So is there a magic number for the proportion of stearic to oleic to keep it from separating? I haven't seen a lot of recipes for shaving soap in particular, but the first one given in the thread Misscheif linked to had a very low moisturizing rating when I punched it into SoapMaker, presumably because it was all stearic acid and coconut oil. The guy who posted it didn't seem to think it was too drying though, so maybe I'm overthinking this. But what I would be shooting for is a shaving soap with a rich lather that protects your skin but also has a moisturizing quality. Maybe you just can't have everything.

Actually DeeAnna I just saw your long post in that thread, #32. That clears up a lot of things about the numbers and I can see how you have to consider different qualities in different types of soap, that you can't just read a low "moisturizing" number and think it will be a very drying soap.

As I peruse that thread I'm hoping to see something about additives in shaving soap. I've put powdered goat's milk in all of my bar soaps so far and love the way it makes my skin feel, and from what I understand it has a protective quality to it. Seems like it would work well in a shaving soap that has a low "conditioning" number in SoapCalc or SoapMaker. I just wonder if it would affect other aspects that you want in a shaving soap like the thickness of the lather...

 

[DeeAnna]

Don't get hung up on the "conditioning" number. I agree you're overthinking this.

 

[Nate5700]

OK, now that I know some of the principles involved, how does this sound for a shave soap?

11.5 oz Stearic Acid (51.3%)
9.7 oz Coconut Oil (43.3%)
1.2 oz Shea Butter (5.4%)
4.62 oz Lye (8% lye discount, all KOH)
3.5 oz Glycerin
1 oz Powdered Goat Milk
0.5 oz Almond Fragrance Oil
21.9 oz Water