CP versus HP - Do any of you do both?

[shunt2011]

I started out with HP and still like it because of cure time. I have since added CP to my skills but prefer HP. I don't do all the cute and pretty soaps. Instead, I concentrate on having a great quality of ingredients. Just my preference.

What do you mean because of the cure time? HP requires just as much cure time as CP and sometimes longer as more liquid is used in HP.

 

[jcandleattic]

I started out with HP and still like it because of cure time.

HP should be cured just as long as CP soap. The difference between HP and CP is the saponification time. It's quicker in HP than in CP. Soap is safe to use after saponification is complete - in HP that's as soon as the cook is over, in CP that is anywhere between 24-72 hours.

 

[IrishLass]

Super, but at this stage of my non-game D), I can't fathom why any FO would care. I guess it's a chemistry thing? Maybe certain oils don't like heat, is that why?

It's a chemistry thing between the lye and certain constituents present in the ornery FO.... and also certain EOs as well.

One of the most ornery constituents is eugenol, found in abundance in your more spicier EOs such as clove EO, and also several FOs (FOs are a mix of EOs and manufactured chemicals). It causes what many of us refer to as 'soap-on-a-stick', i.e., when after adding your FO or EO the soap batter all of a sudden thickens up lightening fast and hardens on you while you are in the middle of stirring or stick-blending your soap batter. Basically, the batter goes from being nicely fluid to solid right before your eyes in a matter of a few seconds. It's the bane of many a soaper-maker. The way to avoid soap-on-a-stick with known ornery FOs or EOs is to HP them and hold off on mixing them in until after the cook when your lye has all been completely reacted with the oils/fats.

I started out with HP and still like it because of cure time.

Ditto what Jcandleattic said in post #22. Unfortunately, there's a lot of misinformation in regards to HP and cure time spread out all over the net, but the truth of the matter is that saponification time and cure time are 2 very different things. Saponification gives you soap that will bubble and clean, but cure goes one better by giving you awesome soap that lathers much better, is more gentle, and lasts much longer than soap straight from the mold.

For example, contrary to a lot of the misinformation out there about CP vs HP, my gelled CP is actually completely saponified/zap-free and safe to use as soon as I unmold and cut, just the same as my HP is, but neither have fully matured yet to the best they can be according to what I built into their formula(s). Both lather up nice enough straight from the mold, but neither is as gentle or as bubbly or as hard and long-lasting as they are once 4 to 6 weeks of cure have passed. That's because of what goes on inside soap during cure. Here is our DeeAnna's wonderful treatise about what chemically takes place inside of a soap as it cures, and why it is more gentle and more bubbly and more long-lasting if given at least 4 weeks to cure:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=634104&postcount=51


IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

I was watching a batch of my CP soap gel in the mold the other day. As the signs of gel spread from the center to the ends of the mold, I thought to myself, "How is this any greatly different than watching HP soap gel in a soap pot?"

I don't make a lot of HP, but of the batches I have made, the cut bars have stayed softer for weeks compared with to equivalent CP soap bars. Soft soap is soap that doesn't last as long in the bath. That ... and the definite improvement in lather quality ... is enough reason for me to cure HP soap at least as long as CP soap, and maybe even a little longer.

 

[jcandleattic]

"How is this any greatly different than watching HP soap gel in a soap pot?"

IMO it's not. I mean, I'm not as eloquently scientific as you are, but really all HP does is speed up saponification through the added heat. HP just does that quicker than CP does.

 

[KiwiMoose]

"Stick" is the operative word. Getting EOs to "stick", i.e., linger more than 6 months or so, takes a bit of knowledge and experience. I used EOs only for 5 years and then switched to FOs because fragrance sells, and FOs deliver scent better.

I will just add to that - My soaps haven't been in existence long enough to test 'stickability' of EOs but I was the adamant when I started that I would only ever use EOs. I could tell after a few weeks of curing that they weren't going to stick, so I started using a combination of FOs AND EOs together. I feel more comfortable with that, than going wholly FO. For example - when I made my Lime and Coconut bars, I used a lime and coconut FO, but I also used bergamot (which is an EO from citrus) and a touch of lemon EO. In my somewhat loopy head that helps me feel better when trying to go for the 'no artificial additives' approach.

 

[loriag]

I’ve had a small croc pot for a year just for rebatching or HP and haven’t used it once. I love CP. At first I didn’t like the look of HP but the all natural colour of a HP is now appealing to me. Who knows maybe it will happen yet.

 

[dixiedragon]

This thread has lots of pictures of soap going wrong:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/a-picture-of-ricing-volcanos-separating-overheating.52097/

https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/tips-and-tricks/soap-behaving-badly/

Super, but at this stage of my non-game D), I can't fathom why any FO would care. I guess it's a chemistry thing? Maybe certain oils don't like heat, is that why?​

I don't know the exact science, but my understanding is that the fragrance (FO or EO) is reacting with the lye that is still present in the raw soap batter. If you do HP, most of the lye is gone by the end of the cook, because it has combined with the oils to form a new substance - soap. Certain FOs - spicy (cinnamon and clove), florals and salty come to mind - are notorious for this.

 

[msunnerstood]

I do HP only and I dont think I have to Glop my soap into the molds. Ive been able to get a more fluid result. No doubt swirls can be much nicer in CP but Ive done some pretty soaps with HP that end up looking smooth and pretty instead of rustic. Clean up is always easier.

 

[gacowgirl]

Excuse me for making a comment. To me, when my HP water discounted soap has gone through saponification in my crockpot and I put it into the mold and level it, it is safe to use. And I do use it. So do a lot of other people who get soap from me. My soap has never made a 6 month cure time and I don't know what is expected of the soap after saponification is complete. Even experienced soapers have commented on how lush and long lasting my soaps are. So to all of you who attacked a self-professed newbie, don't worry. You won't get to do it again. I came here to learn. What a cat attack.

 

[Hendejm]

I could be wrong - but I don’t believe anyone was attacking. Rather - they were giving informed opinions. I trust the experience of others that can only come with time and trial/error. I have learned so much from people on this forum and they have saved me more than once in regards to soaping.

May I suggest that you put one batch aside and let it cure for a period of 6 weeks and test the difference for yourself. I have found for me - that instead of lashing out, it’s better to either trust or experiment yourself so you are making a complete, informed decision or choice.

I want to keep things civil and not add to any negative discourse so please take my words in the spirit in which they are given.

 

[Meena]

Personally, I use an Ayurvedic bar soap and a Sandalwood (Mysore Sandal) one. They are ugly as sin, but they are the only non-conventional soaps that my wallet feels comfy buying regularly. My next favorite, which I buy on a splurge basis, is Dr. Bronner's Hemp Rose or their Peppermint. So I get what you're saying about "great quality of ingredients" over "cute and pretty." I hope to some day produce some beautiful soaps like in the Gallery here, but at the outset I'll be concentrating on perfecting some great-for-skin recipes from near- or actual "food grade" ingredients. Dr. Joseph Mercola (one of my health heroes) once wrote that you shouldn't put anything on your skin that you wouldn't put in your mouth, and I adopted that as my 'bar' (no pun intended), though a difficult standard unless you make your own stuff.

What I don't like about the soaps I'm using is they don't last worth a crap! The Ayurvedic one is coconut oil-based. I'm not sure if they're not curing the soaps long enough, or if there is some other problem. I read about an ingredient -- I think it's Sodium something (sorry, my head is crammed with new soap stuff banging around ungelled [lol]) -- that helps soap get harder during curing, and last longer in the shower, but I have to look into the safety of that ingredient, what it's derived from, whether there's a possibility of it coming from GMO sources, and stuff like that.

I'm fascinated that some of you make lotions because that's another goal. I do 'make' my own lotion from a purchased, unscented, health food store bottle as the base, to which I add Vitamin E oil, almond or other oils, several EOs, shea butter, and other fun things lying about in cupboards, but the ultimate would be to make my own base, also.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[dibbles]

What I don't like about the soaps I'm using is they don't last worth a crap! The Ayurvedic one is coconut oil-based. I'm not sure if they're not curing the soaps long enough, or if there is some other problem. I read about an ingredient -- I think it's Sodium something (sorry, my head is crammed with new soap stuff banging around ungelled [lol]) -- that helps soap get harder during curing, and last longer in the shower, but I have to look into the safety of that ingredient, what it's derived from, whether there's a possibility of it coming from GMO sources, and stuff like that.
Thank you for sharing.

You are probably thinking of sodium lactate. It will help with initial hardening so the soap can be unmolded sooner, but I'm not sure it makes the soap last longer. You may have read that here. I use it in most of my soap batches.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

...(sorry, my head is crammed with new soap stuff banging around ungelled [lol])

hahaha Too funny! Meena, we are on the same page with our soaping goals. "Great-for-skin" formulas are what it's all about for me -- everything I make (custom orders excepted) is formulated for Denver Dry Skin -- including lotion, lip balm, etc. I also make a Dr Bronner's Baby Mild Castile liquid soap (type) dupe. Once you get the hang of it, you'll be able to dupe all of your favorite bars to your heart's content... and maybe even improve them by making them longer lasting.

 

[jcandleattic]

Excuse me for making a comment. To me, when my HP water discounted soap has gone through saponification in my crockpot and I put it into the mold and level it, it is safe to use. And I do use it. So do a lot of other people who get soap from me. My soap has never made a 6 month cure time and I don't know what is expected of the soap after saponification is complete. Even experienced soapers have commented on how lush and long lasting my soaps are. So to all of you who attacked a self-professed newbie, don't worry. You won't get to do it again. I came here to learn. What a cat attack.

What we are saying is yes, it IS and will be SAFE to use as soon as saponification is complete. That is a given. Even CP soap is SAFE to use when saponification is complete. What we are saying is it is not cured. It will not be at it's optimum until a full cure has occurred of at least 4 weeks. That's all we are saying Nobody is attacking you, we are just trying to educate you.

 

[Alfa_Lazcares]

Excuse me for making a comment. To me, when my HP water discounted soap has gone through saponification in my crockpot and I put it into the mold and level it, it is safe to use. And I do use it. So do a lot of other people who get soap from me. My soap has never made a 6 month cure time and I don't know what is expected of the soap after saponification is complete. Even experienced soapers have commented on how lush and long lasting my soaps are. So to all of you who attacked a self-professed newbie, don't worry. You won't get to do it again. I came here to learn. What a cat attack.

What people are responding to was the “because of the cure time” part of your initial post. Cure time and saponification time are two different things.

Yes, your HP soap is safe to use. No one here is debating that.

What is expected about the soap after saponification is a good question and someone linked an article that talks about what happens to the soap after the saponification is over.

But once again “saponification” and “cure time” are two different things and both happen to a soap regardless of method (HO vs CP).

No one is attacking your soaps or method, you do you. But the suggestion is that, if your soaps are great without a cure time, then they’ll probably get even better after you give them time to cure.



As for me, i do CP cause i dont have a crockpot. No other reason. I may one day do HP, but for the moment i’m pretty happy just doing CP soaps.

 

[DeeAnna]

Not to say a crock pot isn't helpful, but I don't use one for HP soaping. I work direct on the stove burner, watched very carefully, or in a warm water bath (bain marie). But I also don't cook the soap for hours, like some do ... I'm sure a crock pot would be a big help in that case.

 

[Fargood]

I do both. It depends on fragrance, time, desired results, etc.

 

[SaltedFig]

Not to say a crock pot isn't helpful, but I don't use one for HP soaping. I work direct on the stove burner, watched very carefully, or in a warm water bath (bain marie). But I also don't cook the soap for hours, like some do ... I'm sure a crock pot would be a big help in that case.

Thank you DeeAnna, it is nice to read that you continue to use the SVHP (Sous Vide HP) method of soaping to make hot process soap!

Sous Vide Hot Process (or SVHP)
Trivia: The process was named Sous Vide Hot Process (or SVHP for short), in reference to the modern method of cooking food using a temperature controlled water bath.

The equipment cost of SVHP soaping very low (it requires no items than likely to already exists in a kitchen (a pot, a cooktop and a wooden spoon to hang the bags on, or a rack and some plastic jugs to sit the bags in, as can be seen in the original pictorial).

While the original soapmaking challenge did not require any extra equipment, the SVHP technique was originally designed with an immersion heater in mind (a small, temperature controlled, water heater used to create a water bath from just about any pot or tub of water). With the surge in popularity of Sous Vide cooking (thanks Masterchef!), immersion heaters have become much cheaper to buy, and using a dedicated water bath simplifies this already simple Hot Process technique even further (no hot spots is my favourite part ).

Some bonuses with SVHP - the method is fast (I can have a fully saponified soap in the mold in under 20 minutes), can be used for most CP and HP soaps (including shave and liquid soaps) and SVHP does not need extra water for the "cook" (making switching between CP and HP recipes very easy)

If you are interested checking out how easy it is to get started with SVHP, the full description of the original technique, including a pictorial, is on the first page of the SVHP soap challenge, and all of the entry photo's are available in my media .

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/thr...ide-hp-soap-swirling.69725/page-6#post-698848

 

[Twinkle]

i prefer CP cos the soap which IMO has a lot more advantages than HP. Only do HP when I'm impatient to try a new recipe cos i can use it immediately