Coronavirus

[Tara_H]

Compliance here is pretty good, at least the places we've been going. Masks are mandatory everywhere inside anyway and I haven't personally heard anyone complaining.
Thankfully my workplace is still on remote-only and everyone is pretty productive that way - I think in the long run they're looking at 50% working from home being the standard for everyone.

 

[beckster51]

I had to go to the grocery store late afternoon yesterday. I estimated that 2/3 of the people did not have a mask on. Ugh. I go to my office and don’t worry about it because everyone I work with is vaccinated and overall our satellite campus is now at >90% vaccinated. We may even be at >95%, but we’re back to wearing masks unless we‘re in our offices alone. Based on state guidance to the universities and our own public health team, our chief operating officer is telling us that, with masks up for all, there is very minimal risk of getting infected even when interacting with someone who is carrying the virus. Following the public health guidance very, very closely has made all the difference. Through all of the pandemic, there have been no documented cases of on-campus transmission among 400 people, even when individuals have been infected off-campus and then come to campus where they potentially exposed others before they realized they were infected. Our campus community is about 30-35% 21-35 year olds - graduate level science students, research technicians and junior level scientists. If anything, they’ve been some of the most careful.

Hooray for you and your campus! Following the science and using critical thinking really does foster having the best outcomes. There are bumps in the road, but without doubt, the best outcomes. You must be very relieved to be working in such a wise environment!

 

[Misschief]

I only wish we had low numbers like NZ! Our health region is not doing too well, and I am pretty sure our city is the epicenter of Canada's current covid cases. The central Okanagan, where I, and @Misschief live, had 922 cases from Aug 8 to the 14th, and numbers have only risen from there but I don't have the stats on those right now to be accurate. It is a little nerve wracking to be honest. It is driven mostly by the younger generation who have not been vaccinated but come to our town to party. We are a tourist destination and the news of our high rates has not been keeping people away, even though we are also dealing with multiple forest fires in surrounding areas, so on top of the virus, we have had to deal with some of the worst air quality in the world over the past month and a bit.
Our son, who lives with us, works in healthcare and is in a care home where there is a current outbreak, although he works on a different floor from where it currently is. Who says it will stay on that floor? We know multiple people now who have had the Delta variant (under 35 ages) and they have said it was either the worst virus they have ever dealt with or it felt like a regular flu....most said the worst flu they have ever had though. I do not want to get this as I have had a couple really bad flus in my life and I do not want a repeat, plus being in the 50+ age catagory makes me feel a little more vulnerable. So far my husband and I have only had one dose of the vaccine but will be eligible for our second one shortly which will hopefully make me feel a little more protected. My husband is regularly having to go to the hospital as his dad is in there in pretty bad condition (elderly with dementia and a bad gastric bleed) and our hospital is loaded with covid cases so just being there is risky imo. I will be happy when this situation is over! The only good thing about this virus has been that it has made us assess our lives more and we decided it was foolish to keep saving for retirement since there are no guarantees we will get there. So we bought a new boat, a new to us truck and camper and we are planning to do way more camping and exploring once we are able. I will be so grateful when (if) life gets to return to a more normal state.

My husband went to pick up some beer the other night and there was a group of young adults in the store; when told that masks were mandatory, their reply was "We're from Alberta", as if that exempts them from mask wearing. It's that kind of attitude from the tourists around here that is, imho, fuelling our high Covid rate. It's incredibly frustrating.

Our vaccination rate (for local residents) is pretty high; approximately 83% of British Columbians have had their first shot and 74% are fully vaccinated. And yet, our local hospital is filled to capacity with Covid patients, the majority of whom are not vaccinated at all and are in the 25-40 age range.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Hooray for you and your campus! Following the science and using critical thinking really does foster having the best outcomes. There are bumps in the road, but without doubt, the best outcomes. You must be very relieved to be working in such a wise environment!

I am relieved. Our researchers have been able to do their work, in their labs and out on boats. It’s not being done as efficiently as it was pre-covid, but it’s getting easier. Getting the work done means that we don’t have to have layoffs or furloughs. I think that helps to keep everyone motivated.

 

[DKing]

@Misschief Did you hear that Kelowna alone is getting between 100-150 cases diagnosed daily? Our vaccination rates have been lower than the provincial average, but they are now picking up thankfully. I am more than a little frustrated with some of the Albertan vacationers. Not only for their determination to not wear masks, but I also saw a post in one of my groups where a large group of all Albertans were camping with a campfire burning. We are having the worst fire season on record and the laws are clear about no fires, but they come here and do as they please. It certainly does nothing to improve BC/Alberta relations when there is this kind of public disrespect being seen. Of course there are Albertan tourists coming and being fully respectful, but the ones that push the boundaries make the people of BC resentful. I can imagine we have our jerks going there and making people mad too. We have gotten to a time in the world where so many people are arrogant and have no respect for others.

 

[Misschief]

@Misschief Did you hear that Kelowna alone is getting between 100-150 cases diagnosed daily? Our vaccination rates have been lower than the provincial average, but they are now picking up thankfully. I am more than a little frustrated with some of the Albertan vacationers. Not only for their determination to not wear masks, but I also saw a post in one of my groups where a large group of all Albertans were camping with a campfire burning. We are having the worst fire season on record and the laws are clear about no fires, but they come here and do as they please. It certainly does nothing to improve BC/Alberta relations when there is this kind of public disrespect being seen. Of course there are Albertan tourists coming and being fully respectful, but the ones that push the boundaries make the people of BC resentful. I can imagine we have our jerks going there and making people mad too. We have gotten to a time in the world where so many people are arrogant and have no respect for others.

@DKing Yup, I'm aware of all of that. Even though our provincial government is begging people not to vacation here this year, it isn't doing much good.

I know there are visitors who do respect our situation but those who are here because... duh.. vacation! (said with a whole lot of sarcasm).... are thinking only of themselves and really don't care what we, as locals, are going through. (high Covid rates and forest fires all around us)

 

[DKing]

@DKing Yup, I'm aware of all of that. Even though our provincial government is begging people not to vacation here this year, it isn't doing much good.

I know there are visitors who do respect our situation but those who are here because... duh.. vacation! (said with a whole lot of sarcasm).... are thinking only of themselves and really don't care what we, as locals, are going through. (high Covid rates and forest fires all around us)

You are absolutely correct! This is not the time to be coming here on vacation as we need any space we have available (hotels, etc) to house those displaced by the fires, and of course we don't want people potentially spreading covid. Everyone should stay in their own regions. My husband and I want to go on vacation badly, but we are staying home to be respectful. I can tell you it is hard when you have all these new shiny toys that you want to use, but it just isn't the right time. Once this concern is over we are going away for a couple of weeks! I worry it will get a lot worse before it is over though.

 

[TheGecko]

Really? I’m surprised. Was this the case in Oregon? like most people with friends and relatives all over the US, no one had any difficulties getting a timely shot when they were eligible.

And therein lies the problem...eligibility. Originally healthcare workers, teachers, essential workers, residents over 65 or who were high risk were supposed to be vaccinated first. Then it was changed to just healthcare workers in hospitals, urgent care, memory care and first responders. The 1b group was supposed to be healthcare works in long-term care facilities and residents, hospice programs, mobile care, guards in jails, and folks who worked in group homes (but not the residents). And no, the residents in LT Care weren't getting vaccinated. The 1c group was supposed to be outpatient places that worked with high risk patients, but not the patients themselves. The 1d group was everyone else in the healthcare industry.

Then the Groups were scrapped in favor of Phases with Sub-Groups; that didn't work out so well either. It wasn't until May/June that the vaccine was made available to the general population. My husband, over 60 and high risk was finally able to get vaccinated in June. In general, it's been a cluster you-know-what.

I have also heard type of mask matters. I know you're not getting vaccinated so I wanted to bring this to you attention so you're as safe as possible

Appreciate the information though there is a bit of a problem with your numbers. First is that 578/60000 is .96%, not .78%. I'm just doing a blanket number since I can't find any information that specifically breaks down vaccinated/unvaccinated persons. I even went to Provincetown's Covid section and could find no information on how many of their residents are vaccinated/unvaccinated.

The second is with the 60,000. The first is that "Bear Week" was cancelled again this year...though there was an "informal" gathering of some folks. And the site that provides information it, say that it attracts around 10,000 people, far less than the 60,000 you stated. According to the CDC, there was a Covid outbreak in Provincetown associated with "multiple summer events and large public gatherings" between July 3 and 17th. There were 469 cases identified during that time with roughly three-quarters of those cases among full vaccinated people. So let's say...3000 residents, 3000 visitors, 65% vaccinated. 252/3900=9% Vaccinated. 117/2100=5% Unvaccinated. Seems to me that you're almost twice as likely to come down with Covid if vaccinated that if unvaccinated. But those are just raw numbers...lots of other factors can come into play.

It's funny that you should mention masks. When I got my Covid test, I was told that my mask was not good enough, that I had to wear one of the those blue paper ones that you find all over the place. Even after I pointed out that my mask was made with four layers of dense cotton fabric with a charcoal insert containing two more layers of fabric, they insisted theirs was 'better'. No problem...I just put my mask over it.

I think that there is a bit of a misunderstanding here and it's probably my fault. At the present time I have chosen to not get vaccinated, not that I have chosen to not get vaccinated at all. Again, there simply has not been enough time for Covid to be fully studied, much less have a truly effective vaccine and this is proving to be true. There are a lot of folks like myself...not enough time, vaccine is experimental, too much misinformation and the whole 'carrot and stick' approach. Why do you have to bribe people to start with? If it's supposed to be the 'end-all, 'be-all', why aren't people jumping on the bandwagon? Why are so many medical professionals remaining unvaccinated? Which bring us to the 'stick'...threatening folks with getting fired? And not only getting fired, but that won't get unemployment? Or that they can get 'fined'?

As for "herd immunity"...I'm not sure if you understand what exactly is, I know I had to look it up myself. To have it, you first HAVE to have "immunity"...meaning you can't catch, you can't spread it. We don't have that with the vaccine...not only can vaccinated people still get Covid, they can spread it. Until the vaccine provides immunity, it's not going to matter how many people are vaccinated as evidenced by Israel. As of now, they have the highest...78%...yet they are seeing the same 'surge' as everyone else. They say it's because their vaccinations rates aren't high enough. They say it's because the vaccine's effectiveness wanes after about six months. They say it's because of the Delta variant, which the vaccine doesn't protect against.

 

[lenarenee]

@TheGecko Must be the way your state handled it then. Sounds incredibly inefficient. In San Diego he would have been eligible in March; possibly sooner depending on category of health issue. How awful to to have to wait that long for someone truly in need!


Israel is actually at about 58% vaccinated. They’re 78% in terms of the eligible population…which is over 16, instead of 12 unless that changed in recent days. And the teens and young adults have a very high vaccine hesitancy rate, so that’s another reason for the 58%. But, yeah. Those little details aren’t usually mentioned in the news. Very few Palestinians are vaccinated, but I don’t know if they’re included in the stats or not.

 

[TheGecko]

@TheGecko Must be the way your state handled it then. Sounds incredibly inefficient. In San Diego he would have been eligible in March; possibly sooner depending on category of health issue. How awful to to have to wait that long for someone truly in need!


Israel is actually at about 58% vaccinated. They’re 78% in terms of the eligible population…which is over 16, instead of 12 unless that changed in recent days. And the teens and young adults have a very high vaccine hesitancy rate, so that’s another reason for the 58%. But, yeah. Those little details aren’t usually mentioned in the news. Very few Palestinians are vaccinated, but I don’t know if they’re included in the stats or not.

Our state has been a mess since day one...everything is heavily politically driven. Outside of the metro area and the two college towns...everything else is conservative and 'rural', and folks pay the price.

When all this mess started last year, I went into Mama Bear mode. By the time our state went into lockdown, I was well prepared and 18 months later...still prepared. My husband, darling man that he is, bought another set of shelves for soaping this last month since I had given up mine for our pantry. While moving stuff around he found my stash of ammo (some of my first purchases).

I pray that I never have to use it outside of the range, but as I noted above...we're a nation divided. especially in this state.

 

[KiwiMoose]

@DKing Yup, I'm aware of all of that. Even though our provincial government is begging people not to vacation here this year, it isn't doing much good.

I know there are visitors who do respect our situation but those who are here because... duh.. vacation! (said with a whole lot of sarcasm).... are thinking only of themselves and really don't care what we, as locals, are going through. (high Covid rates and forest fires all around us)

See now, in NZ, they would not be allowed to enter or leave a level 4 (lockdown) zone. We had this once before in February, when there was a small outbreak in Auckland and the borders were patrolled by police to ensure compliance. The difference being that being in a very narrow part of the country there are very few roads in and out. Usually what happens is that when lockdown is imminent, all the (rich) Aucklanders hop in their cars are head to their holiday homes on the coast. Tracing (QR) codes must be used at any supermarkets or health services accessed during this time.
NZ's Level 3 is more lenient - but masks are still mandatory in populated places, and there are to be no gatherings of more than 10 people. Travel between regions is still restricted, but you can travel within your own city. Bubbles can be extended beyond your immediate household to include extended family and friends.
Once we get down to Level 2 I can go back to work and we can hold tutorials ( of no more than 25 students) as long as they are spaced 1 metre apart. We can't hold lectures though because we have over 500 students in our cohort. We are not allowed gatherings of more than 100 people.

 

[Misschief]

See now, in NZ, they would not be allowed to enter or leave a level 4 (lockdown) zone. We had this once before in February, when there was a small outbreak in Auckland and the borders were patrolled by police to ensure compliance. The difference being that being in a very narrow part of the country there are very few roads in and out. Usually what happens is that when lockdown is imminent, all the (rich) Aucklanders hop in their cars are head to their holiday homes on the coast. Tracing (QR) codes must be used at any supermarkets or health services accessed during this time.
NZ's Level 3 is more lenient - but masks are still mandatory in populated places, and there are to be no gatherings of more than 10 people. Travel between regions is still restricted, but you can travel within your own city. Bubbles can be extended beyond your immediate household to include extended family and friends.
Once we get down to Level 2 I can go back to work and we can hold tutorials ( of no more than 25 students) as long as they are spaced 1 metre apart. We can't hold lectures though because we have over 500 students in our cohort. We are not allowed gatherings of more than 100 people.

Part of the problem we have here is that each province has their own Provincial Health Officer who sets the guidelines for each province (keep in mind that our provinces are larger than a lot of countries). Provincial Health Officers are the ones who decide the level of shut down (or opening) in their provinces as they're the ones who have the best picture of what's happening in their regions. We also have a Chief Public Health Officer for Canada, who oversees the national guidelines. For instance, Dr. Theresa Tam, the CPHO advises the government on whether or not national borders should be shut down or opened up, depending on what's happening across the country and in the US. The PHO for each province decides whether or not travel can be allowed within their own province.

At one point, our PHO, Dr. Bonnie Henry, discouraged travel between BC's health regions (there are 6). It was down to essential travel only and, yes, they did have police check points between some regions.

What's happening here now is that Alberta (next province over) has opened everything up, including travel; they've since had to implement some safety measures again because of spikes in transmission. A lot of Albertans have second homes here and those Albertans have been insisting on coming to their summer homes because they're "residents and tax payers and have the right to travel to their homes". Travel is now allowed (discouraged but allowed). And, they're bringing friends. A lot of the younger crowd (25-40) in Alberta haven't been vaccinated but, because travel is allowed, they're travelling.

It's disheartening for those of us who live here because we had some of the lowest transmission rates in the country this past spring. It was pretty much under control, which is why orders were relaxed. And, once travel was again allowed, our rates here have become the highest in the province. The locals are NOT happy and I fear that there could be some push back down the road if things aren't handled correctly.

 

[Nona'sFarm]

They said that with the first round, but it isn't what happened. Just like before, folks high in the government, along with folks who have money and fame will get theirs first. The elderly and the poor will be last.

Perhaps it depends on your location. That was not my experience in our area. People I know in the high priority groups were allowed to sign up first. As far as the poor, they had a bi-weekly clinic set up by the free food pantry in our area.
I'm disappointed it wasn't the same for everyone.

 

[Lindy Lou]

May I recommend visiting the following website: www.americasfrontlinedoctors.org

Some very good resources to educate yourself further about the the virus and the shots.

 

[AliOop]

@Lindy Lou I appreciate hearing from all sides, and listening to all points of view regarding the safety and efficacy of the vaccine. I am not anti-vaxx (had them all in the past except flu vaccine, bc I don't get the flu). But I do have great concerns about this one, especially with so many medical professionals refusing it at the cost of losing their jobs.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

As reported by ABC news the group America’s Frontline Doctors “has been widely discredited for spreading disinformation about the coronavirus and unproven treatments, and social media platforms have removed its content.” The group’s founder, Simone Gold, was arrested (and has now been indicted) for charges related to the attack on the US Capitol.

edited for clarity

 

[rdc1978]

@TheGecko - I'm tagging you because I can't seem to get your quote in here and my post.

Thanks for the response, which made me to back to recheck the figures from the past week since so much of the information was off the top of my head.

In the summer, the town's population swells to 60k - but these are not all "bear week" participants, though the timeline does overlap with the unofficial "Bear Week." and July 4th. Between July 3 and July 17, which there were a number of large events, including bear week (official or unofficial) there were 469 cases. One could argue that the 60,000 population did not specifically occur during that time frame, but given that there were a number of large public gatherings, and July 4, and Bear Week, it seems more likely than not that this is the period during which the population experiences that dramatic increase.

If one were to accept the 60,000 population between July 3 and July 17, there were 469 cases of COVID in a largely vaccinated population, which is 0.78%. Of those 469 cases, 74% of those who contracted the virus were vaccinated, so,..according to Alexa that's about 347 cases of vaccinated people contracting COVID, which is .57% of 60,000.

I'd still say that that is a very small number of cases, and I would have expected more at large public gatherings if the vaccine weren't effective.

And since 85% of the cases were male, it suggests that these were cases from the bear week festivities. If you were there with family, or a mixed group, I would think you'd have a more even distribution among women and children, who can also contract the virus and would be tested through contact tracing. . Even if there were 10,000 people for bear week, 85% of the 469 reported cases is about 398 cases. So, even though that percentage would be higher, its at or about 4%, still well within a 95% protection estimate. I probably would agree all the male cases were not from bear week. But I'd say that even if you were to assume that, during a week when people were in a perfect situation for asymtomatic spread and only 4% got covid, thats not only a good result, but its a result, I believe, that is within the 95% protection touted by the vaccine makers and the traditional medical community. Even if you were to assume that only 7000 people showed up for unofficial bear week and that all 398 male cases occurred during bear week, thats a little over 5%. Given how good the conditions would have been for asymptomatic spread that still seems really low. Its absolutely possible my numbers and math are wrong, I did not go to math school!

The article I'm linking to indicated that the area has a large population of vaccinated people and even the visitors who contracted the virus were largely vaccinated, which is why the 74% figure may also be a little confounding. If the percentage of people with the vaccine increases, its more likely that any cases of the virus will be in someone who is vaccinated. For instance - If you have a town of 10,000 people were 9,993 are vaccinated and two vaccinated people contract the virus, you can technically say that 100% of the cases are among the vaccinated, while completely ignoring that only two people contracted the virus at all.

Additionally, even with the outbreak, five people were hospitalized and no one died. So, a 1% hospitalization rate, and a 0% death rate among the infected. So even if one wanted to argue that they stand the exact same chance of getting covid with or without the vaccine, the data continues to support only a small number of hospitalizations among the vaccinated with breakthrough infections.

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/s...t-cdcs-provincetown-covid-19-outbreak-report/
The article I'm linking from the Mayo Clinic does not seem to suggest that people must be 100% immune from the virus or fully unable to transmit the virus in order for herd immunity to be achieved. From my read of the article, if you have 95% protection and a vaccine that boosts t-cell response to get the virus out of your body faster, then the virus has fewer viable hosts and opportunity to spread, because even when the rare person does get it, they are not able to spread it for as long. And they are largely within the herd that has 95% immunity and will likely not get it, but even if they do the virus is less likely to stay around as long. The article says that "Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a community (the herd) becomes immune to a disease, making the spread of disease from person to person unlikely." And the word unlikely, to me, suggests that transmission need not be impossible, but unlikely.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...th/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808
The AMA has indicated that 96% of doctors are vaccinated. So, while there may be people in the medical community that choose not to get vaccinated, it appears that people who have spent, at least four years dedicated to the study of medicine and whose job it is to provide high level care for patients have chosen to get vaccinated. And 45% of those who were not vaccinated planned to get vaccinated.

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-cent...-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19
If I trust everyone is acting in their best interest, then I have to trust that doctors are doing the same. And doctors in private practice, as far as I know, are not required to get vaccinated. So, to me, that suggests that people most familiar with medicine and medical treatments, medical science and medical risk have, by and large, determined that vaccination is in their best interest.

@TheGecko - I know you are very likely frustrated and feel a lot of pressure. And you want to take time to make your decision, but I hope that you continue to consider all the sources available to you. I think the road is a little harder for those who want to do a lot of independent research because many of us are not experts in the field, and to me, I don't know anyones job as good as they know it so I do the best I can to understand the data, but I cannot contextualize it like an expert could. I think you're an attorney too, and it kinda reminds me of people who have read their pocket constitution , but they aren't able to contextualize the information because they don't really know the applicable case law, areas of law that may implicate constitutional law or precedent cases or even ideas like dual sovereignty.

And, just know that I hope you stay happy and healthy no matter what. Its like 4 am, so I'm a little loopy and I feel like I should thank you for coming to my TedTalk.

 

[Nona'sFarm]

The article I'm linking from the Mayo Clinic does not seem to suggest that people must be 100% immune from the virus or fully unable to transmit the virus in order for herd immunity to be achieved. From my read of the article, if you have 95% protection and a vaccine that boosts t-cell response to get the virus out of your body faster, then the virus has fewer viable hosts and opportunity to spread, because even when the rare person does get it, they are not able to spread it for as long. And they are largely within the herd that has 95% immunity and will likely not get it, but even if they do the virus is less likely to stay around as long. The article says that "Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a community (the herd) becomes immune to a disease, making the spread of disease from person to person unlikely." And the word unlikely, to me, suggests that transmission need not be impossible, but unlikely.

This is my understanding of herd immunity as well.
But it doesn't mean immunity can't wane, and thus the need for boosters. And because a virus can mutate as it replicates in someone's body, there will probably be a need for tweaks. Currently the data indicate the benefits far outweigh the risks. It can be a really tough decision. And as I have said many times, I still wish everyone, who can, would wear masks in group settings and public places.

 

[Lindy Lou]

As reported by ABC news the group America’s Frontline Doctors “has been widely discredited for spreading disinformation about the coronavirus and unproven treatments, and social media platforms have removed its content.” The group’s founder, Simone Gold, was arrested (and has now been indicted) for charges related to the attack on the US Capitol.

edited for clarity

Although this is not meant to start an argument, I would question the Main Stream Media, on a great deal of things. This website is not disinformation. I still recommend it. Peace...

 

[paradisi]

Viruses can and do mutate. Look at how the flu vaccine each autumn is a bit different, to account for that.

The idea that somehow because the current vaccine isn't 100% effective in prevention and transmission, and therefore not to be trusted, is an idea taken from the playbook of antivaxxers trying to scare people off childhood vaccines.

It's not true, and one ought to ask oneself why people pressing that idea never apply that standard to the alternatives they are selling.

Speaking of the flu... it usually kills many thousands each winter in the US, and deaths from flu dropped dramatically last winter, because of masking and distancing and closures.

I'm old enough to have had relatives who got polio, and remember my parents' summer fear before the polio vax came out. My Mom knew people who'd lost family to smallpox.

Those examples in front of our family as I was growing up make it easy for me to see why vaccination is utterly necessary and useful. Perhaps younger folks who don't remember a time before now, when people died all the time from those diseases, don't fully grasp the gravity of the situation they set up by not vaccinating.

*The americas frontline doctors group is, frankly, quacks. A prominent YT vidder from that group is prevented from practicing in any of his regional hospitals because of his well known quackery.