Confused about Soleseif and adding fruit puree

[Iluminameluna]

I've read the posts suggested in another thread and, among others, Bramble Berry's post on how to best add fruit puree to a recipe (the suggestion is 1 part puree, 2 parts liquid).
However, elsewhere, but I don't remember exactly where, I read/saw that some acid, like a citrus juice or vinegar, needs to be added to a salt water bar. I understand that a brine can be made by adding salt to water, and almost every post I've seen or read says to add sea salt to water, and they give their recipe with salt and water amounts. However, I've not seen a single post with even a suggested amount/parentage of acid to use. The closest I've seen is adding sodium citrate to a salt bar, which is a whole other kind of recipe.

Here's what I've gotten from using Bramble Berry's lye calculator, plus my own notes:

6% SF
2 oz castor oil
6 oz co, 76°F
10 oz oo
4 oz Swt. Almond oil

3.03 oz lye
7.26 oz liquid

My notes:
2.42 oz mango puree
4.84 seawater, filtered

Have I missed the mark or hit the nail on the head??

Thanks to all those who've already helped and thanks to all those amazing soapers who are so generous with their great advice!!

 

[penelopejane]

Hit the nail on the head.
Lye water + purée = recipe water.

No need for any thing else although I add citric acid as a chelator. I don’t add acid because it’s a salt bar.

Dissolve as much salt as you want in the water before adding lye. Add the purée (pumpkin, mango whatever) to oils. I like a really dry purée but that is just me.

I’d cut your castor oil to 5%. It can make soap soft at higher percentages.

 

[BattleGnome]

Ive never read anything about adding an acid with a purée. Please post a link if you ever find that source again. The only reason I can think someone would suggest adding an acid would be to preserve color or use it as an actual preservative some how. In both cases the lye do what the lye do. Best case for adding an acid you accidentally get chelation or a higher superfat. Worst case you miss measure and end up with a mess.

 

[amd]

I have used lemon juice in avocado puree soaps, it helps with some of the discoloration but does still discolor when adding the lye. My method is 1 part puree, 2 parts water. I soap using water to lye ratio at 3:1, so I put in an equal amount of puree to lye. (It's easy math for me, that's the only "why" I have for doing it that way.) I add 1 tbsp lemon juice to the avocado puree, mix the lye and water, then add puree to the water. I don't adjust my recipe for the lemon juice because I soap at 3% SF and the lemon juice is such a small amount. When I use pumpkin puree, I use approximately 2 parts puree and no lemon juice. I say approximately because I use 1oz more water in the 1 part water to dissolve the lye, just to make sure the lye has enough water to dissolve. As with most things soapy, there is more than one way to do it, and this is how I have successfully done it. I've never used mango (although I should, I have one hanging out in the fridge that no one is eating!) so I can't help you there. I would lean towards making a small lye solution and testing with a tbsp or so of mango to see what it looks like. Keep in mind, the puree will change color again once oils are added and when the soap is cured. Someone with mango experience may chime in. If you do it, please keep us updated! I've added mango puree soap to my to do list now

interesting side note: I spent an hour yesterday researching soleseife and tweaking a recipe to make some. It's been on my to do list after one failed attempt at the end of 2016 and haven't researched/attempted it since. Today... it pops up on SMF forum! Must be a sign. lol.

 

[Iluminameluna]

Update:
I put my soap in a cupcake tray, then in the oven preheated for 15 minutes at 120°F but thermometer said 100°F. I checked it about 6 hrs later (at 2 a.m.) and it still looked like when I'd poured it, meaning like thick pudding. Couldn't take photos because my hands shake too much for even my camera to handle.
Here, where I live, tempt go from 95°F during the day to 75-2°F at night so I thought it'd be alright.
WRONG.
It separated overnight.
I'm now doing a hot rescue in my crockpot. Will post again when I know if it works.
I don't mind mistakes but not when I need to fix them when it's 95°F!!
Happy soaping Sunday, everyone!
Editing to add a photo of my soap batter cooking in my crockpot. It's been about 3 hours and it's not getting very dry around the edges or doing much more than sort of boiling around the edges.
Am I doing something wrong?
ANY and ALL help appreciated!!

 

[penelopejane]

What extras to the above recipe did you add and what was your process? Did you stick blend it?

 

[Iluminameluna]

I didn't add anything except acceabove recipe.
Process: melted the seawater and puree with the lye crystals. Strained and added to CO and castor oils. Stirred first then added the infused olive oils (5 oz of OO infused, each with turmeric and paprika).
Stick blended until light trace, then added the 4 oz of sweet almond oil mixed with 1 oz lavender essential oil ("now" brand).
Stick blended again, 15-20 secs, then stirred, and stirred while blending as well (SB in one hand, silicon spatula in the other).
When it was like thick pudding I poured into cupcake molds then held until the 15 minutes passed of the oven preheating.
Left it in the oven overnight, checking to see what was happening by cracking the oven door (don't have an oven light) at 2 a.m., then left it until 11 this morning.
At 1:30 this afternoon I put it in the crockpot because the stove was in use. It's on high.
Here's the picture I didn't add above! Oops!

 

[Iluminameluna]

I forgot to mention that I did the mixing at room temp with everything, except the seawater and mango puree.
I've put it into the mold (cardboard box lined with a cut up shopping bag).
I did the zap test and I didn't get anything and I took a tinny crumb of it and tried it out for suds/oily feel/too cleansing, etc., but though I did get some suds, it left all oily feel one o hands.
Could it be that the salt in the seawater is too much for the oils or the puree somehow changed the chemistry of everything else?
I'll unmold tomorrow and see if the feel has improved.
Feeling deflated.

 

[earlene]

Did you leave the molds uncovered in the oven overnight? One thing that probably did not happen was gel, for 3 reasons: individual molds cool off really fast, even in a closed oven; the soap batter was probably fairly cool to start with, as you said you soaped at RT; the oven cooled down with the opening to check progress. However, why it separated, I am not sure, other than perhaps you only thought you reached trace, but reached false trace. Not stirring enough can be one reason for separation. With that recipe I wouldn't worry about over-stirring by hand, because it's not going to go too thick with hand stirring. In your case, it may have felt like trace because of your puree. Then you added more oils and stick blended again. But still that could have been false trace because of the puree creating a thick feel with RT ingredients.

Next time, I'd suggest, soap a bit warmer if you plan to use individual molds. Also, I would add all the oils together before adding the lye solution.Then only pulse for 3-5 seconds with the stick blender, then hand stir for awhile. Alternate hand stirring with short bursts (3-5 seconds) with the SB. When you are sure you can see traces of the soap batter across the top of the container like this in this photo:

Then it should be ready to pour into your individual molds. Then cover them with clear plastic and insulate them as well. Even in a warm oven, they will cool down quickly.

To insulate a tray of individual molds for CPOP what I do, is cover the top with plastic wrap, then place a flat piece of cardboard over top, then cover with a towel. I often place a towel under the molds tray first (before pouring) then I can wrap the towel up and over the entire thing. If the house is not hot, I will also add an inverted cardboard box over the top of the soap once it is inside the oven; this gives it even more insulation and keeps more heat inside the soap, thus encouraging gel even more than just the pre-heated oven.

Then Don't Peak!. Leave the oven door closed all night long.

As for your save, it looks like it should be okay. What you pictured there looks like it has reached gel. And you got no zap, so once it firms up solid, and you should be good to go.

One other thing, though: Are you confident about your scale? You are weighing your oils and not measuring with a measuring cup, right? I am just wondering if the weights were totally accurate since you mention it felt so oily. I wouldn't expect 6% SF soap to feel overly oily.

(photo from Homesteading.com)

 

[cmzaha]

Update:
Editing to add a photo of my soap batter cooking in my crockpot. It's been about 3 hours and it's not getting very dry around the edges or doing much more than sort of boiling around the edges.
Am I doing something wrong?
ANY and ALL help appreciated!!

You really do not want a hot process in the crock pot to get dry around the edges. It does happen with rebatch, but do not scrape it off the sides when pouring as it will make dry chunks of a lighter color in your soap.

Could it be that the salt in the seawater is too much for the oils or the puree somehow changed the chemistry of everything else?
I'll unmold tomorrow and see if the feel has improved.
Feeling deflated.

Your saltwater is not going to make a difference with your oils. As far as brine soap goes you can really only dissolve enough salt for a 25% salt solution, which is what I use in my soleseif soaps. I do superfat my Soleseif soaps at 10%.

I have no idea why your soap separated unless you had a false trace and not a stable emulsion, or used to much liquid. Did you subtract your 2.4 oz puree from your 7.2 oz brine, based on the above recipe. If you did not 4.8 oz brine solution and used 7.2 oz brine solution plus 2.4 oz puree you have to much liquid which can cause overheating and separation, especially when put in a warm oven. Puree is always a full or partial liquid replacement.

I also do not understand what you meant in the statement that you melted your seawater in the lye. I assume you just added your lye to your seawater. It is better to add puree to your oils and stick blend it in, they add in your lye solution.

 

[penelopejane]

^^^ I agree with cmzaha.

Dissolve your salt in part of the recipe water then add your lye. Stir well. Melt and mix your oils then add the purée to the oils. Then add your lye mix.

Your purée weight replaces some of the recipe water by weight. I like to use really thick purée.

Follow earlene’s instructions for CPOP. Preheat the oven to 110*F and turn it off before placing the wrapped soap inside. Do not peak for 12-24 hours.

 

[Iluminameluna]

Sorry if my recipe, as I wrote it, seems confusing. Let me try to clear things up.
First, I used a TOTAL weight of liquid of 7.26 ozs. Puree plus seawater: 7.26 ozs.
Second, I didn't add ANY salt to water. I used ACTUAL seawater! And I froze it in a separate bag from the puree, which was ONLY pureed mango. No sugar, water or anything else.
Third, I put the soap in the oven AFTER it preheated to 100°F. That's the temp I saw on several sites so that's what I went with.
Last, I did peek but I didn't open the door completely. Just an inch or so, so that I could see the tops of the soaps.
I appreciate scraping the sides for some folks would be irksome, but for me, a rustic looking soap is a good thing. Right now, the cut bars look like pieces of candied pumpkin chunks!! Lovely!
They are soft but I'm beginning to think it might be because of all the oils without any hard fats in the recipe. A little chunk I used to test gave really pretty suds.

 

[penelopejane]

View attachment 31226
I appreciate scraping the sides for some folks would be irksome, but for me, a rustic looking soap is a good thing. Right now, the cut bars look like pieces of candied pumpkin chunks!! Lovely!
They are soft but I'm beginning to think it might be because of all the oils without any hard fats in the recipe. A little chunk I used to test gave really pretty suds.

Your recipe isn’t all soft oils and should make a hard bar. There is something wrong with the measuring or the process that hasn’t worked.

If the water/liquid was accurate then it must be a problem with trace.

I ran it through soap calc and it's 29% lye concentration and the recipe seems ok although it's 10% castor oil. Which can lead to soft soap but not that much and not immediately in my experience.

Looking at your soap it looks as if there are chunks of mango in the soap. Did you puree the pulp and put it through a sieve or are there chunks of mango in the soap?

Sorry to tell you that the colour won't hold for long.

 

[zanzalawi]

Could it be the seawater itself?
I’ve been to the ocean in some places- where an oily residue was left on your skin after the water had dried. Maybe things are in that water that we can’t really account for? [emoji848]

 

[Iluminameluna]

Responding to @penelopejane, I mashed, then strained the puree twice and measured out the 2.x ozs and saved the rest. It was perfectly smooth. No chunks or fibers, so not sure.
@zanzalawi: the seawater is filtered through a store-bought ceramic filter used to make water potable. In fact, I drink that water, mixed with fresh, and with a few squeezes of line juice. Doesn't even need the sugar to make it taste like the freshest limeade. It hasn't made me sick though I've finished half the gallon already in the past 3 weeks.
The soap bars are getting harder, though, so maybe I panicked too soon.
I think what looks like chunks is only the dry bits I scraped off the sides.
I'm also hoping they don't lose ALL the color! I used a heavily smoked-paprika-infused olive oil and some with turmeric to enhance the color of the mango. Keeping my fingers crossed!
Thank you all for all the great suggestions. They have given me lots to think about.

 

[penelopejane]

Responding to @penelopejane, I mashed, then strained the puree twice and measured out the 2.x ozs and saved the rest. It was perfectly smooth. No chunks or fibers, so not sure.
@zanzalawi: the seawater is filtered through a store-bought ceramic filter used to make water potable. In fact, I drink that water, mixed with fresh, and with a few squeezes of line juice. Doesn't even need the sugar to make it taste like the freshest limeade. It hasn't made me sick though I've finished half the gallon already in the past 3 weeks.
The soap bars are getting harder, though, so maybe I panicked too soon.
I think what looks like chunks is only the dry bits I scraped off the sides.
I'm also hoping they don't lose ALL the color! I used a heavily smoked-paprika-infused olive oil and some with turmeric to enhance the color of the mango. Keeping my fingers crossed!
Thank you all for all the great suggestions. They have given me lots to think about.

The turmeric should stick and so should the paprika even though it is only oil infused. They will both fade though but not to fawn or cream!

 

[Tinak]

I've read the posts suggested in another thread and, among others, Bramble Berry's post on how to best add fruit puree to a recipe (the suggestion is 1 part puree, 2 parts liquid).
However, elsewhere, but I don't remember exactly where, I read/saw that some acid, like a citrus juice or vinegar, needs to be added to a salt water bar. I understand that a brine can be made by adding salt to water, and almost every post I've seen or read says to add sea salt to water, and they give their recipe with salt and water amounts. However, I've not seen a single post with even a suggested amount/parentage of acid to use. The closest I've seen is adding sodium citrate to a salt bar, which is a whole other kind of recipe.

Here's what I've gotten from using Bramble Berry's lye calculator, plus my own notes:

6% SF
2 oz castor oil
6 oz co, 76°F
10 oz oo
4 oz Swt. Almond oil

3.03 oz lye
7.26 oz liquid

My notes:
2.42 oz mango puree
4.84 seawater, filtered

Have I missed the mark or hit the nail on the head??

Thanks to all those who've already helped and thanks to all those amazing soapers who are so generous with their great advice!![/QUOTE
I have made the recipe from this page
http://www.lovinsoap.com/2015/09/how-to-make-soleseife-or-brine-soap-salt-water-soap/
or at least her salt to lye water ratio ... I really liked the creamy lather and the bars were very hard and long lasting.

 

[Iluminameluna]

Just wanted to update on my soap (mango puree soleseif).

All my fears were for nothing. The soap bar is hardening just fine. There's a bit of oiliness to them but I think it's because my climate is so humid. One of the bars was used about 3 weeks ago and it just about dissolved in a week, but the lather was amazing! Bonus, the color is stable. Whew!

Thanks all for your comments and critique.

 

[penelopejane]

I am really not sure this is a soleseif soap.
You’ve used seawater (about 3.5% salt) and then filtered it out.
Most soleseif is about 25% salt. Unfiltered.

 

[Iluminameluna]

I am really not sure this is a soleseif soap.
You’ve used seawater (about 3.5% salt) and then filtered it out.
Most soleseif is about 25% salt. Unfiltered.

I did use seawater, which is what the original soleseife recipe was all about. Check out this site: https://lovelygreens.com/make-soleseife-sea-water-soap-recipe/. Down in the page, the blogger explains the difference between making your own brine and using actual seawater.

As for the salt, it does NOT filter out. The salt is completely dissolved into the water (meaning the molecules are completely intermixed), unlike the impurities like sediment, microbes, etc. If you can get your hands on some seawater, try out filtering it and you'll "sea". It even still smells a bit like ocean water, just not the "dead sea creature smell" you get at the beach. Away from the beach, the ocean smells a LOT cleaner.

Edited to add, why regular water filters don't work to remove the salt from water: From this site, https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-dont-we-get-our-drinking-water-from-the-ocean/:
The problem is that the desalination of water requires a lot of energy. Salt dissolves very easily in water, forming strong chemical bonds, and those bonds are difficult to break. Energy and the technology to desalinate water are both expensive, and this means that desalinating water can be pretty costly.