confused about CP 'gel' stage

[Dalziel]

I am still a bit confuzzled about the 'gel' stage of CP.
These are the questions rolling around in my head:

1. Why would one prevent it?

2. Why would one prefer it?

3. What is the benefit?

4. What is the downfall?

5. How do I prevent it?

6. How do I encourage it?

7. Should I want to encourage/discourage gel?

8. If I make a basic batch of 75 evoo/15 coco76/10 castor with a 5% lye discount and 33% should I try to gel or not, if I want to how? Does it matter? Does it affect color/smell? Am I thinking about this to much?

I am getting ready to do my first batch (above oils) and I am a bit nervous- I want to make sure I have a full grasp on what is about to happen and I want to make sure I have an idea of what is happening when its happening.

The gel thing confuses me atm.

Thanks for your replies and assistance!

(also what colour would that oil combo make if left natural)


Thank you!

Dalz

 

[Healinya]

1. Why would one prevent it? the color can change slightly (become more transparent) some people don't like that

2. Why would one prefer it? The soap cures faster that way (and imo, gives me peace of mind lol)

5. How do I prevent it? Don't insulate it

6. How do I encourage it? Insulate it

7. Should I want to encourage/discourage gel? Your call.. whatever you like.

8. If I make a basic batch of 75 evoo/15 coco76/10 castor with a 5% lye discount and 33% should I try to gel or not, if I want to how? Does it matter? Does it affect color/smell? Am I thinking about this to much? No, you're doing all the thinking you should.. I've heard that 5% castor will do, 10 may be sticky (someone with more knowledge may correct that tho). Whether it gels or not, it's still gonna do what it's supposed to. If you decide not to gel, you will have to let it sit for a few days before you can slice it. When it gels, it can be sliced and set to cure a lot sooner.


(also what colour would that oil combo make if left natural) I'd assume somewhere along an off-white, tannish color.

HTH

 

[ChrissyB]

Hi Dalziel
I will try to answer your questions as best as I can, some other soapers will come along and offer their experience and knowledge also.
The arguement used to be that allowing the soap to gel would result in a harder bar of soap that finished saponification at an earlier time than a soap that did not gel. I myself am not convinced of this. I have made many a bar of soap and didn't gel and it still comes out very hard.
The reason not to gel would be to retain the creamy, opaque look to the soap, gel can sometimes result in a darker, more gelli-ish soap. Also, the thought is that if the soap doesn't gel, it will retain it's scent because the scent hasn't been burnt off by the gel, gel gets super super hot.
It all depends, I think, on what scents you are using, what colour you want to achieve, and what overall result you want to achieve.
Some soapers will pour their soap into moulds and then immediately put into the fridge, or on the back porch depending on where you are and how cold it is. This would be to discourage gel.
On the other hand, if you want your soap to gel, that's why all the books will tell you to insulate your soap while it is in the mould. Wrap it in towels, blankets, put it in an esky...
There was a thread a little while ago that showed pictures of soaps from the same batch where one gelled, and one didnn't, that should show you the differences that I am talking about.

 

[Dalziel]

thanks for your quick replies. I am planning on using a honeysuckle EO

how much EO should I use per pound of soap- if i plan on a 3lb soap I hear its more like 5lb after water weight, and keeping a strong smell after gel?

I may try a larger batch and do 1/2 towels kept warm and the other outside and see the diff. ( I dont want to waste anything tho)

When I do make the batch - I will keep you all updated on it!



why does soap cal have Water as % of Oils as 39% def when alot tell me to do 33-30% min?

what is the diff?
should I add grapefruit seed extract to the bar? how much per lb? I plan on a 3lb batch.

 

[Healinya]

I wouldn't suggest making a 5lb batch at this moment. You may want to try a smaller one - two pound. It's a lot of oil to lose if you end up not liking it. If you leave half the soap open and uninsulated, the heat from the other side will escape the soap won't look that pretty.

Have you been to www.millersoap.com yet? That sight will answer all the technical questions you didn't know you had.

I don't mess around with water and lye discounts too much unless I am trying to tweak something I already made. Otherwise, I just trust the soapcalc's default settings.

 

[surf girl]

put it in an esky...

I feel like I have to translate this little Oz-ism for the North Americans That would be what we call a cooler. And thanks, ChrissyB, because I never would have thought of that as one of the ways to encourage gel. I swear I learns something new every time I sign on to this forum.

 

[ChrissyB]

Ha Ha, didn't even think of that!
Another way that I have used to encourage gel, when it's cold here of course, is to turn the oven onto the lowest setting, while I am preparing oils and moulds and what have you, then once I start mixing, I turn the oven off and leave the door shut. By the time I have poured the soap into the moulds, then put the moulds into a shoe box or something like that, then put the whole lot in the (turned off) oven. The heat that is left is just enough to encourage the full gel, works perfectly with the moulds that I use which are the loaf style.

 

[carebear]

I promote gel by insulating my soaps because I cannot for the life of me seem to prevent it - and if I don't insulate enough (or if I keep the soap cool in hopes of preventing gel) I end up with a partial gel. This is only an aesthetics issue but it can look quite odd.

An up-side to gelling is that you can get your soap out of the mold more quickly - if they gel I can get them out of the mold in 8-24 hours, if they don't then it could be 3 days or even more if I kept them in the fridge. The worst is a partial gel when I think it's ready to come out of the mold but the corners didn't gel and they are soft and get mucked up during the unmolding.

Some also think that gelled soap is less likely to ash. Can't prove it by me, but it's a theory. There is also an opposing theory....

There are folks who prevent gel. Some say they like the texture of their soap better, some say it preserves their fragrance materials (I doubt this - but hey, whatever), and some prefer the way their soap looks - especially milk soaps - as they tend to be lighter in color.

Which route should you take with that recipe? Totally up to you. I'd recommend over time that you try it both ways and see what you like.

Ways to promote gel: soap with warm oils & lye, warm your empty molds in a preheated 170 F oven, insulate with towels, insulate in a cooler, put on a heating pad or pack with hot bricks or the like, put in a warm oven (no higher than 170) - usually turned off, use a log mold - the bigger the mass of soap (and the thicker) the more it generates its own heat to speed gel along, put a cover on your mold, use a wooden mold, use "funky foam" as the liner, use a cylinder mold

Ways to prevent gel: soap cool, put your mold on a rack to allow air to flow under and around it, use a slab mold, put a fan on it, put your filled mold somewhere cool - even the fridge, use small molds - especially individual molds, use plastic molds, don't use a lid

Pay no attention to the "water as a % of oils". What we talk about ts the LYE CONCENTRATION. Which I recommend to be about 30% (that's 30 parts lye to 70 parts water)

How much EO you use will depend on your EO - what kind are you using? Typically it's 0.5 - 0.7 oz of EO per pound of OILS.

I don't use GSE so cannot tell you about that.

 

[starduster]

Chilly

put it in an esky...

I feel like I have to translate this little Oz-ism for the North Americans That would be what we call a cooler. And thanks, ChrissyB, because I never would have thought of that as one of the ways to encourage gel. I swear I learns something new every time I sign on to this forum.

And if you are a Kiwi it's a chilly bin. well ,there are kiwi soapers too :wink:

 

[surf girl]

Re: Chilly

put it in an esky...

I feel like I have to translate this little Oz-ism for the North Americans That would be what we call a cooler. And thanks, ChrissyB, because I never would have thought of that as one of the ways to encourage gel. I swear I learns something new every time I sign on to this forum.

And if you are a Kiwi it's a chilly bin. well ,there are kiwi soapers too :wink:

I was chatting to mr surf girl while I was posting about the esky. He is a Kiwi, and he too said I should translate to "chilly bin"! But then, I figured you Antipodeans are all familiar with each other's lingo. It's my fellow potentially befuddled North Americans I had to help! What do Europeans call it, I wonder?

 

[Healinya]

lol... I'm an american apple pie myself... I saw the word and thought you just made it up... I actually thought it might have been one of those terra cotta outside decorations that can be used as a stove lol.

I would have been scratching my head at 'chilly bin' too

 

[SoapieCP]

Fab thread, I have been looking for info about whether to gel or not and nothing helpful came up until I found this thread. Lovely ta x

Us UK Europeans call the refrigerator a 'Fridge'
The freezer is a 'Freezer'
An upright combination version of the two is a 'Fridge-Freezer'

 

[jbarad]

How long after pouring the soap into the mould and insulating it should you start to see the "gel" happening ?

I'm also going out on a limb here and assuming "gel" shows up as a more glossy, brighter coloring than if you just poured and there was no gel ?

 

[Maria]

To me the cold process soaps look like a matte finish after gelling as opposed to the glossy look of hot process soap.
Friday's batch was a milk and honey soap. I wanted to avoid the gel phase because the batch I made prior came out an unattractive color. I put the mold in the freezer for 2 hours and no gel. It was cold and past the point of gel, (I thought) so I moved it to the refrigerator. A couple hours later I checked and it had partially gelled.

 

[topcat]

To me the cold process soaps look like a matte finish after gelling as opposed to the glossy look of hot process soap.
Friday's batch was a milk and honey soap. I wanted to avoid the gel phase because the batch I made prior came out an unattractive color. I put the mold in the freezer for 2 hours and no gel. It was cold and past the point of gel, (I thought) so I moved it to the refrigerator. A couple hours later I checked and it had partially gelled.

Yes Maria - I put a batch in the freezer for about 6 hours then into the fridge for overnight. When I took it out of the freezer it seemed perfectly fine with no gelling, yet in the morning I had a slight gel in the middle of the batch! I guess the freezer for 24 hours will be next to try!

Tanya

 

[abigtroutt]

My molds are plastic and all I do is turn on the celling fan and the air moving around the mold keeps it from the gel stage. I use to gel all my soaps untill recent. I want to keep my colors from changing.

 

[artisan soaps]

..

 

[max_ime]

If I am not mistaking the gel is good, because you have to gel in HP and only that way will you control what are the oils that are superfatting your soap because you add them after the gel/cooking when most of the reaction has occurred in between the lye and the oils.

But the CP let's you keep your oils at a lower temp, I don't know if this makes the oils better than if they were heated for 20-65 min.

 

[navigator9]

It's like chocolate or vanilla.......no right or wrong, just personal preference. When you've made two batches of the same recipe, one gelled and one not, you'll know which you like better. Most people strongly prefer one or the other.

Here's a pic for you, so you'll know it when you see it. It starts from the center and works it's way out, here it's not all the way to the edges yet. The color change is not always as dramatic as it is in this pic, but you'll definitely see a difference. After it gels and cools down, it goes back to a lighter color again. If you haven't guessed, I prefer gel. :grin:

gel phase1.jpg

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

If I am not mistaking the gel is good, because you have to gel in HP and only that way will you control what are the oils that are superfatting your soap because you add them after the gel/cooking when most of the reaction has occurred in between the lye and the oils.

But the CP let's you keep your oils at a lower temp, I don't know if this makes the oils better than if they were heated for 20-65 min.

Gel and Cook are different in that with the cook in HP you are doing it in a much shorter time and then moulding up the soap. Gel is more what happens when you have moulded the soap and the only other thing that you have left to do is cut it. In many ways they are the same, but people tend to refer to them as different things: Cook in HP, gel in CP. You can't say that gel allows you to add oils after as a superfat, in the same way that you wouldn't refer to the cooking stage of HP as the gel stage.

The answers given early on in this thread were a little off to me, with things like cure times and so on.