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GlenS

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Joined
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Hello,
I am into my first two batches of hot process soap (real noobie)! I would like to ask the forum members if the information that "Cold Process Recipes can be Hot processed" is true or how true.
Also for what will be hot process bastille goatmilk and buttermilk, do you have to add appropriate scents to your batch to get a good scent.
I am trying to duplicate for myself a version of a commercial soap Crabtree and Evelyn Goatmilk and the unavailable Buttermilk soaps. At least eventually.
Seems that the mildness and goatmilk is good for sensitive skin and I have had no problems with the C&E goatmilk.
Cheers
 
You can do any recipe HP or CP. The only difference is you will need more liquid for HP. As for adding fragrance that is totally up to you. That's a personal choice. Do you like unscented soap then go for it. If not add a fragrance or EO. As for milk soaps being good for sensitive skin, personally it's more about recipe than the milk. I make milk soaps, mostly Coconut. Tried goat's and buttermilk, cream etc.... Some have more fats or sugars etc. I use them mostly as label appeal as I'm one who doesn't think a whole lot survives the lye monster. Some add a bit more creaminess to the lather in my opinion.
 
You can do any recipe HP or CP. The only difference is you will need more liquid for HP. As for adding fragrance that is totally up to you. That's a personal choice. Do you like unscented soap then go for it. If not add a fragrance or EO. As for milk soaps being good for sensitive skin, personally it's more about recipe than the milk. I make milk soaps, mostly Coconut. Tried goat's and buttermilk, cream etc.... Some have more fats or sugars etc. I use them mostly as label appeal as I'm one who doesn't think a whole lot survives the lye monster. Some add a bit more creaminess to the lather in my opinion.
Howdy shunt2011,
Thanks for the info on the CP and HP. Sorry but what do the EO's add to a soap? Scent I would like although not crucial. Will have to see if my batch of goatsmilk survives it's setting up to tell if I would like more suds. Can you suggest a reputable supplier of scents. Currently the soap is for personal use.
Appreciated
 
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@GlenS - Some of the suppliers for FO's - Nature's Garden, Wholesale Supplies Plus, Nurture Soap, Elements Bath & Body, Rustic Escentuals, Brambleberry, Fragrance Buddy....we also have a fragrance review here on the forum.

Also, if you post your recipe we would be happy to give you some help.
 
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Glen,

I have used powdered goat milk in all my cold-process soaps so far, it sounds like you might be using fresh goat milk so I don't know if that will produce different results. I would think it would be the same for hot-process as it is for cold (but I'm pretty new at this too). From what I understand even cold-process soap gets up to an internal temperature of 300 degrees F during the gel phase, so I don't think it would be an issue as far as whether the milk can stand up to the heat. I'd definitely be interested if a more experienced soaper could chime in on that though.

I do think something about the milk survives the lye. I haven't made a batch without goat milk but have used soaps from the same brand with and without it. I get a similar feel on the skin from my soap as I did with the goat milk soap I bought, and did not get that feel on the soap that didn't have it. It seems to form a protective layer that I assume comes from the protein in the milk, and keeps the moisture in my skin for a longer period after using. Could be my imagination.
 
Howdy shut2011,
Thanks for the info on the CP and HP. Sorry but what do the EO's add to a soap? Scent I would like although not crucial. Will have to see if my batch of goatsmilk survives it's setting up to tell if I would like more suds. Can you suggest a reputable supplier of scents. Currently the soap is for personal use.
Appreciated
EO is essential oil and it adds fragrance to a soap. You can use EO or fragrance oils-two different things.
 
C &E’s ingredients are rather elusive......I can’t find them for their goats milk soap.

Do you have the packing? List the ingredients and we can try to sort out its formula
I’m very curious myself now!

I hope someone comes along to add to this, but I read that milk molecules are broken down by the lye which creates sodium lactate and its the SL that feels so good on the skin. Many people think SL also helps the lather. This begs the question: would adding SL to soap do the same thing as adding milk?
 
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You need to react lactic acid with NaOH to get sodium lactate. Milk has lactose, a sugar, that can be converted to lactic acid by fermentation -- in other words, you'd want to use yogurt, kefir, etc. to get lactate in your soap. Lactate from fermented dairy is going to be a small % of the whole, however -- you're better off just adding sodium lactate to get a decent % of it in your soap. Lactate from actual plain milk isn't going to happen.

Kevin Dunn did a study where he found the sugars in unfermented milk do react with lye, although they don't make lactate. The reaction raises the superfat of the soap more than you'd expect. Speaking from memory -- so don't hold me to this number -- I think Dunn found the superfat increase due to milk sugars is something around 4%, give or take.
 
Speaking from memory -- so don't hold me to this number -- I think Dunn found the superfat increase due to milk sugars is something around 4%, give or take.

Would that be 4% of the superfat number (i.e., going from 10% to 10.4%) or adding 4% to the total number (going from 10% to 14%)?
 
@GlenS - Some of the suppliers for FO's - Nature's Garden, Wholesale Supplies Plus, Nurture Soap, Elements Bath & Body, Rustic Escentuals, Brambleberry, Fragrance Buddy....we also have a fragrance review here on the forum.

Also, if you post your recipe we would be happy to give you some help.
That is great news on the fragrance reviews and thanks for the group of suppliers!! The recipes I used/created were mainly to test the water, nothing that I need to keep. I want to get the process down. I actually now won't need soap for a while or I have to get dirtier quicker. :rolleyes:

Glen,

I have used powdered goat milk in all my cold-process soaps so far, it sounds like you might be using fresh goat milk so I don't know if that will produce different results. I would think it would be the same for hot-process as it is for cold (but I'm pretty new at this too). From what I understand even cold-process soap gets up to an internal temperature of 300 degrees F during the gel phase, so I don't think it would be an issue as far as whether the milk can stand up to the heat. I'd definitely be interested if a more experienced soaper could chime in on that though.

I do think something about the milk survives the lye. I haven't made a batch without goat milk but have used soaps from the same brand with and without it. I get a similar feel on the skin from my soap as I did with the goat milk soap I bought, and did not get that feel on the soap that didn't have it. It seems to form a protective layer that I assume comes from the protein in the milk, and keeps the moisture in my skin for a longer period after using. Could be my imagination.
Howdy,
The goatmilk soap solidified enough to cut it today. We may have a concurrent imagination on this issue {:))! How much like goatmilk does your soap smell? I don't know about how mine will be in a week, but time will tell. The process and the heat and the stages have me nervous. I think I will follow a recipe and cross my fingers!
Thanks

EO is essential oil and it adds fragrance to a soap. You can use EO or fragrance oils-two different things.
Appreciate your response and the information. I hadn't a clue, honestly! I will worry about that a bit later I think.
Cheers

C &E’s ingredients are rather elusive......I can’t find them for their goats milk soap.

Do you have the packing? List the ingredients and we can try to sort out its formula
I’m very curious myself now!
Hey there lenarenee, was this post for me. If so I don't understand soap lingo, ain't no lye:)
 
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@lenarenee -- Found the ingredients list on the Australian version of the C&E website. http://www.crabtree-evelyn.com/au/en/hand-care/soaps/

Unless there's a ton of titanium dioxide in this soap, there's not much shea and not much goat milk in the recipe.

CandEgoatMilkSoapIngred.jpg
 
Yes Glen, that was for you! C & E was for Crabtree and Evelyn.

Goats milk bar is pretty basic - palm oil, palm kernel oil (instead of coconut oil which some people find to be slightly harsher than palm kernel oil - so that could be on thing that agrees with your skin more than other soaps)

Anyone know how to duplicate this soap considering it contains no soft oils? I don't know how to make only palm, pko, and shea butter into a good bar.

And DeeAnna has a good point - very little shea or goat's milk because you can't use much titanium dioxide without ruining the texture of your bar. The ingredients are listed by largest amount to least amount, so we know there's less shea butter than there is titanium dioxide.

Seems that each different soap has a different recipe - which is fun.
Frankly, I'm more impressed with the Pomegranate bar - and no wonder it's priced higher with those oils! However - all of the bars are overpriced!
 
She's asking if you have the ingredient list from the soap that you are trying to duplicate.
Hello amd,
Thank you for your kind assistance! No I do not......

@GlenS you will not be able to 'replicate' their soap. besides that it is probably a detergent bar, it is also triple milled I think.
Yes you are probably right and yes it is definately triple-milled. I know what that means, it means I can't do it !!!
Thanks

@lenarenee -- Found the ingredients list on the Australian version of the C&E website. http://www.crabtree-evelyn.com/au/en/hand-care/soaps/

Unless there's a ton of titanium dioxide in this soap, there's not much shea and not much goat milk in the recipe.

View attachment 38066
Hello DeeAnna,
Wow I sure wouldn't have thought of that. Very cool, thank you and cheers

Yes Glen, that was for you! C & E was for Crabtree and Evelyn.

Goats milk bar is pretty basic - palm oil, palm kernel oil (instead of coconut oil which some people find to be slightly harsher than palm kernel oil - so that could be on thing that agrees with your skin more than other soaps)

Anyone know how to duplicate this soap considering it contains no soft oils? I don't know how to make only palm, pko, and shea butter into a good bar.

And DeeAnna has a good point - very little shea or goat's milk because you can't use much titanium dioxide without ruining the texture of your bar. The ingredients are listed by largest amount to least amount, so we know there's less shea butter than there is titanium dioxide.

Seems that each different soap has a different recipe - which is fun.
Frankly, I'm more impressed with the Pomegranate bar - and no wonder it's priced higher with those oils! However - all of the bars are overpriced!

Well lenarenee,
C&E, I thought you were doing soap speak... But I sure didn't know about the palm oil. Also have no idea what titanium dioxide is so it looks like I am going to miss the mark by a far amount. Dang it. $8 for a 3.5 ish oz of soap is too much for my blood. I will have to see how my goatmilk turned out......
Maybe you could comment on the method I used. The soap came out darker than the lard soap. The evaporated goat milk was refrigerated and the lye/water solution was cooled in an ice bath before mixing. Hoping not to burn the milk (as if I fully understood the term)! Would that account for the color?
Anyways thanks
 
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Howdy,
The goatmilk soap solidified enough to cut it today. We may have a concurrent imagination on this issue {:))! How much like goatmilk does your soap smell? I don't know about how mine will be in a week, but time will tell. The process and the heat and the stages have me nervous. I think I will follow a recipe and cross my fingers!
Thanks

I don't get an appreciable smell in an unscented batch from the goat milk. But I'm using powdered, one ounce of powder in a roughly two pound batch. I don't know how fresh would do as far as smell goes. I've done just one unscented batch, the others I've done all have fragrance or essential oils which definitely cover up any smell from the milk.

I'm going more for the skin feel with the goat milk than the smell, and I think I'm getting that. Good luck with yours, probably good to follow an established recipe if you're doing hot process for the first time. I'm going to try to do a hot process batch (likely tomorrow) but that will be a shaving soap with KOH lye. I'm interested to see if goat milk will do well in a shaving soap.
 
I don't get an appreciable smell in an unscented batch from the goat milk. But I'm using powdered, one ounce of powder in a roughly two pound batch. I don't know how fresh would do as far as smell goes. I've done just one unscented batch, the others I've done all have fragrance or essential oils which definitely cover up any smell from the milk.

I'm going more for the skin feel with the goat milk than the smell, and I think I'm getting that. Good luck with yours, probably good to follow an established recipe if you're doing hot process for the first time. I'm going to try to do a hot process batch (likely tomorrow) but that will be a shaving soap with KOH lye. I'm interested to see if goat milk will do well in a shaving soap.

Well the evaporated milk does give some smell, hut not near enough. Will definitely look for a tried and true recipe. I haven't tried the bastille goatmilk yet so I don't know if I accomplished the goal as to feel. I am guessing that the coconut oil gave the lather and smoothness to the lard soap, I could be wrong. Good luck as well with your trial. Going to have to google KOH lye also!!
Now that you mention it I wouldn't mind having a soap that smells like gillete shaving cream. Hmmmm
 
Well the evaporated milk does give some smell, hut not near enough. Will definitely look for a tried and true recipe. I haven't tried the bastille goatmilk yet so I don't know if I accomplished the goal as to feel. I am guessing that the coconut oil gave the lather and smoothness to the lard soap, I could be wrong. Good luck as well with your trial. Going to have to google KOH lye also!!
Now that you mention it I wouldn't mind having a soap that smells like gillete shaving cream. Hmmmm

Well do report on how the Bastille soap turns out, maybe it will have a mild enough scent to let the goat milk come out. The coconut oil will definitely bring the lather, I don't think it's generally considered smooth though. Lard I think brings a sort of balance to a soap. What else is in there?

KOH generally is used more for soft and liquid soaps, so don't try it in your bar soap. The shave soap I'm wanting to do is the kind that you dollop into a mug and lather up with a brush, so it's more of a cream consistency. I'm going with almond fragrance in that because almond is awesome in general and I once had a very good shaving soap that was almond scented, so now to me that's what shaving soap is "supposed" to smell like.

I thought it might be cool to have a soap that smells like Skin Bracer aftershave but I don't know how I'd go about it, aside from just pouring the aftershave into the soap. That's probably a very very bad idea...
 
C&E, I thought you were doing soap speak... But I sure didn't know about the palm oil. Also have no idea what titanium dioxide is so it looks like I am going to miss the mark by a far amount. Dang it. $8 for a 3.5 ish oz of soap is too much for my blood. I will have to see how my goatmilk turned out......
Maybe you could comment on the method I used. The soap came out darker than the lard soap. The evaporated goat milk was refrigerated and the lye/water solution was cooled in an ice bath before mixing. Hoping not to burn the milk (as if I fully understood the term)! Would that account for the color?
Anyways thanks

Titanium dioxide is used as a colorant (for White color of soap) but not a lot of it can be used, as was mentioned. (It is also used in some many food products, so you would see it on a lot of ingredient labels.)

Lard reportedly produces a very nice lather, so it wouldn't only be from the goats milk.

As someone who was once so new at this that I also went through the stage you are at now with making goatsmilk soap and not being sure what was going on and the smells and so on and so forth, I'd just like to encourage you to keep on trying. Mixing any milk product with lye is a challenge when you are new. There are so many methods available to us, but the one we seem to read about first seems to be the one that suggests you have to freeze the milk, use a cold water bath, with ice and keep the milk & lye solution as cold as possible, while adding the lye powder/crystals very very slowly and constantly stirring. It's very intimidating for a newbie, to say the least. And, yes, the smell and fumes can be off-putting.

Rest assured, if all goes well (and it doesn't always, BTW), the resulting soap will eventually be very nice soap, despite the initial smell and unexpected color. I have made a few goatmilk soaps (it's not my go-to soap, so I've really only made a few), but for the most part they have all been nice. I did have one fail, but that is another story.

The smell was gone after a decent cure. Fragrance can help, but time helps as well, when it comes to odor.

However, not everyone's nose is the same either, some of us can smell lard in soap no matter how long the soap cures. Some can smell olive oil in soap no matter how long the soap cures. Some never notice either. The sense of smell is also a personal thing, just like what our skin likes when it comes to a soap formula. So you may want to pay attention to the smells that linger for you and ask for feedback from others (family, close friends) about what they notice, but try not to use the power of suggestion, to see if others smell the same things.

The color of any goatmilk soap can be a sort of a beige-tan color if the milk got a bit on the warm side. With TD (titanium dioxide), it can be white, but most folks get a pure white GM soap (goats milk = GM) by freezing or refrigerating the soap as soon as it is in the mold for several days to prevent the soap from overheating. This also prevents the soap from gelling, which is what happens as the soap heats up via the natural chemical processes of mixing lye with fats. Gelling is not necessary, as both ways are fine for making good soap. Some prefer gelled soap and some prefer non-gelled soap. That is another topic altogether. Some GM soapmakers do gell all their soap, so that's not even cut-in-stone, either.

Well the evaporated milk does give some smell, hut not near enough. Will definitely look for a tried and true recipe. I haven't tried the bastille goatmilk yet so I don't know if I accomplished the goal as to feel. I am guessing that the coconut oil gave the lather and smoothness to the lard soap, I could be wrong. Good luck as well with your trial. Going to have to google KOH lye also!!
Now that you mention it I wouldn't mind having a soap that smells like gillete shaving cream. Hmmmm


Lard reportedly produces a very nice smooth lather, while coconut oil produces more bubbles. However, mixing oils can produce a more or less 'balanced' bar, depending on the proportions used. That takes a lot of practice and can depend somewhat on the what each person's individual skin feel. We don't all like the same feel.

Welcome to the journey! I am sure you will be fascinated by it for quite some time.
 

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