concentrate emulsion?

[Mikeyduece]

I am trying to make an emulsion of infused oil and soap base concentrate to add as needed to water. My problem is that while my oil/soap emulsifies well with either xanthan gum or lecithin, once added to water it doesn't emulsify with that. it will mix if shaken vigorously but as soon as I stop the oil/soap mix settles on top.
Any advice on how to get these to emulsify well for an extended period?

ps i am using the oil/soap mix to water as 1-2oz for every 1gallon water.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I am confused as to the goal, so I can't be of much help. It might help others if you explain what you are looking to do and any particulars like the recipe of your soap base. As it stands, I can't imagine why one would make soap, then mix it with more oil and water and what one would be trying to make.

 

[Mikeyduece]

insecticidal soap.
1oz oil
~1/8oz olive oil & coconut liquid soap concentrate
~.5g cayenne
1gal water
optiphen(still working on ratio)(thinking of trying ND or plus too)

i make the oil soap cayenne mix and add preservative. then as I need to spray my garden i mix up a gallon of water and about an ounce of the oil/soap mix. i dont use up the whole gallon at a time but I do use it regularly throughout the week.
My problem is that as I'm spraying it separates.
I know that this may not be the best place to ask this question, I jsut figured that since I'm using an infused oil, soap base, and water with just different ratios that a soap making forum might be the best option.

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm confused too, but the short answer to your question is you aren't formulating your product properly.

Making a stable emulsion is not just about shaking a bunch of stuff together and expecting it to work. Diluting what you say is a stable emulsion by just shaking it up with water at a huge 1:128 ratio is obviously breaking the emulsion. You need to be looking at formulating the FINAL product to be a stable emulsion, not just the concentrate.

Xanthan gum is a thickener not an emulsifier. Lecithin can emulsify but only under specific conditions. I recommend Susan's blog at http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/ for a wealth of sound information.

 

[IrishLass]

What I would do is try using polysorbate 80 as your emulsifier. Xanthan gum and/or lecithin are on the weak side compared to PS80. I use PS80 all the time to emulsify extra fats into the liquid soap that I make, and also to emulsify fragrance oils into water-based perfumes, it works great. I buy mine from LotionCrafters, but you can buy it at other online soap-making or lotion-making sites.

Usage rate: I would start with an equal amount of PS80 as per your oil amount, add it to your soap base/water/oil mixture and mix/shake. If the mix still separates, it's perfectly fine to add more PS80. Just add more to the mix a little bit at a time until things stay emulsified.

IrishLass

 

[galaxyMLP]

Insecticidal soap does not need oil in it to work. The potassium based soap (for example, real liquid soap), will kill soft bodied insects (aphids, ect.). Cayenne pepper will deter animals from eating the plants however I don't believe that it needs oil to function unless you are steeping the cayenne in oil and then adding the infusion.

However, if you still find that you are in need of the oil, I would also suggest polysorbate 80. It works well to emulsify fragrance oils in liquid soap.

 

[DeeAnna]

Yep, I bet PS 80 will be a much better choice. Not "natural" but it will work.

 

[IrishLass]

I was just reading a thread about homemade insecticidal soap on another forum, and now I am wondering if my advice to use PS80 is wise or not for such an application....... Someone on the forum brought up the point that if polysorbates could not be found listed on the ingredient list in commercially available 'natural' insecticides, then they are probably not a good thing to spray on leaves. Just thought I'd mention that.


IrishLass

 

[Mikeyduece]

Thank you so much for the quick replies
Ya, I'm trying to make this organic as possible. Would like to sell it eventually and it'd be nice to be able to put the organic label on it.
i got the xanthan gum as emulsifier from the bob's redmill site. i have only used lecithin that i had left over from making confections this winter.
would glycerin or citric acid work as an emulsifier?

 

[MoonStruck]

Neither citric acid nor glycerin are emulsifiers, so sadly they won't work.

 

[Mikeyduece]

sorry to jsut be throwing names out there, lol. I'm just looking things up but get cvague reviews of what it does. Thank you so much for putting up with my noobness
going to try glyceryl oleate, maybe gum arabic, acacia gum?
and thinking of an orange lemongrass blend for a preservative

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Just mix the soap with water - I use that on my roses and it works a treat!

 

[boyago]

after a little googling there seems to be a borax/beeswax combo that people use as a "natural" emulsifier. They reference it here. They also use Neem oil for organic pest control. Anybody think a neem oil LS would work for this application? I think that might be simpler if so.

 

[abc]

I use canola oil and water for dormant oil spray in the winter. It does separate but I shake the sprayer a lot.

If you want the natural approach this link is a proven insect killer & repeller in my area.

http://www.realfarmacy.com/home-brewed-garden-insect-spray/

 

[Mikeyduece]

my recipe works great no bugs at all. ya i was reading about the borax/beeswax combo too. gonna have to try that as well. My bro inlaw doesnt like the smell of neem oil, so i use rosemary. im experimenting on my small garden for his larger one. the rosemary oil suffocates the bugs and i think it's called carsonin(sp) kind of keeps them from returning, then the cayenne burns the eggs and bugs but doesnt ahrm the plant. Thank you so much for all of the information guys! So glad I stumbled on this site