Cocoa Butter "Bloom" - Any wisdom please.

[JuliaNegusuk]

I have just been making a batch of soap for sale and most of the bars seem to have varying degrees of problems with a whitish bloom on the surface and some have whitish, slightly crumbly edges. The surface bloom seems to come off with a damp cloth and the crumbliness does not go more than a mm or so into the bar. Of course, while I was developing the recipe it didn't happen at all. Now I have it certified, it happened the first two times on just one batch of bars, this time it has happened on nearly all of them. Annoyingly they look perfect when first unmoulded, it seems to develop over about two days following unmoulding.

This is the recipe:

300g (50%) olive oil (ordinary not pomace or virgin)
210g (35%) coconut oil
30g (5%) shea butter
30g (5%) cocoa butter
30g (5%) castor oil
Sugar 6g
Sodium Hydroxide 86g
Water 172g

I use an 8 cell silicone mould. I do not gel. I melt the hard oils separately then add to the room temperature soft oils before mixing with lye that I have cooled down. Probably mix at about 100 degrees f plus oil temperature and less that 125 degree f lye temperature. I don't usually bring the temperatures right level. I then pour and refrigerate overnight to avoid partial gel.

Any ideas what's going wrong? Ideas I had - melting the hard oils individually, starting with cocoa butter, then shea then coconut?

Warming the soft oils so there is less of a shock temperature drop when adding the hot hard oils?

Either not refrigerating or removing from the fridge after say, half an hour?

Looking at chocolate making though, the temperatures for tempering and mixing chocolate seem quite low so I don't see why that's the problem. And how would I avoid partial gel which I don't want either?

Any thoughts gratefully received. Apart from that the recipe works well producing a hard, quite lathery, long lasting bar of soap given my limitations of a palm free, veggie soap, but I need to overcome this cosmetic cocoa butter issue.

Thanks.

 

[penelopejane]

Get your oils and lye to whatever temp necessary (only takes one practice run then write it down and keep it) so they all mix to about 110* F.
Don’t refrigerate. Cover, wrap and let them gererate enough heat to saponify on their own.

This should avoid partial gel and the type of ash problem you are getting.

 

[LilyJo]

Have exactly the same problem with cocoa butter. Makes amazing soap but the bloom develops over time sometime mine comes off like soda ash and sometimes it doesnt.

The unpredictability with soap and certification costs is making me thing about giving up altogether!

 

[cmzaha]

Coco Butter does not bloom, or I have never had it bloom, Kokum Butter yes. But the bloom aspect of butters happens in the bucket or package they are stored in after air hits it. Kokum can bloom so much it become light and fluffy. What you are most likely seeing is ash, sodium carbonate or washing soda. Usually gelling your soap will help deter ash

 

[LilyJo]

TBH I thought mine was soda ash at first as I've had that before in the past but this was different - I know exactly what Julia means it looks like its bloomed in the same way as chocolate does.

And its so annoying that you make perfect soap all the time you are testing - for months and months - and then you get certified and do the same recipe, the same way and yep, it wont play nice at all!

Love making soap and have sold for a while now but the frustration is getting to me if Im honest. I think it might be time to hang up my soap tools for a few months and go play with something else and come back with renewed enthusiasm (hoepfully!)

 

[HowieRoll]

Just a thought, but I struggle with soda ash on some batches, and they are usually the ones with lower lye concentrations (around 33% or lower). It looks like you are using about a 33.5% lye concentration. One thing I've noticed is that as I've begun to soap most batches with a 36-40% lye concentration, the soda ash issue is gone.

This may or may not be a soda ash issue at all, but my suggestion would be to try a batch with a 38-40% lye concentration and see if it still happens.

ETA: however, I CPOP most of my batches so that might help with soda ash, too. In which case the above suggestion won't be useful so I'll pipe down now.

 

[cmzaha]

It can be tricky for some to soap with 38-40% lye concentration if they want to swirl. I only use 40% with single oil soaps or my very slow tracing recipe if I want it to trace faster. The theory of higher lye concentration more time to swirl never worked for me. I still find, thanks to IL, the sweet spot to be a 33-35% lye concentration, sticking mostly to 33%. My vegan recipe is high in palm so it traces quickly and at times I use 30% concentration depending on my fo, which is the lowest concentration I go.

 

[JuliaNegusuk]

Thanks for your advice. I am pretty positive it isn't soda ash. For a start it is not on the top of the soap, it forms on all the sides that were in the mould, very little, just the odd streak, on top. I have read that silicon moulds can be dodgy when they get old, but I don' t hink that is the problem either as I always have a bit over which I put in another, newer mould, and that seems to do the same thing. It is very similar to what happens with chocolate which gets a white fat bloom which wipes off. Also the slight crumbliness goes beyond the surface, albeit just a fraction, it isn't entirely just sitting on top. It also, oddly, seems to have formed where I had a two layer soap with different colours, along the place where the layers have met. But if you cut them open the soaps are fine inside. Swirling etc isn't an issue for me, my soaps are insanely plain and boring. But if I insulate, I get partial gel, which leaves an unsightly dark blob in the middle. I don't know which is worse.

I will have to do some experiments. There must be something different I am doing, some bit of laziness that's crept in. It maybe the difference in temperature between the oils and lye, but I thought that was something that didn't matter too much. I'll report back if I find a solution, but it clearly isn't a common problem, except me and for Lilyjo! What are we doing Lilyjo? Do you gel your soaps or fridge them like me?

 

[penelopejane]

Thanks for your advice. I am pretty positive it isn't soda ash.

Yes I am pretty sure it isn't soda ash either. But i think it is a type of ash and if not people seem to understand "a type of ash" but we can call it whatever you like. I don't think it is the cocoa.
I do know exactly what you mean.

I think that if you soap warmer (when everything is mixed in it must be around 110*F) for the whole pour and insulate your molds (especially with individual cavity tray molds) you will stop the problem.

The problem with insulating your molds is that you are worried about getting partial gel which is an absolute pain to avoid with individual cavity tray molds.

You can CPOP which is a simple fix. Preheat the oven to 110* exactly. Turn it off, put the mold in a cardboard box, wrap it in a towel or blanket and leave undisturbed (do not open the oven) for 12 hours.

Otherwise you have to work out some system that works for your individual climate and set up.
I have been using a heat mat recently and it is a pain to get warm but not too warm both summer and winter. I think trying to get as close as the oven set up as you can is the best way to go. I tried and cooler but it kept the heat in too long. You need something like an oven that holds heat but when you turn it off (which you must do before you put the soap in) it slowly releases the heat over time. I am still experimenting to get a repeatable, foolproof system that doesn't use the oven (my new molds are too big for my oven) but works the same regardless of whether it is summer or winter.

Some people say heating their timber mold that surrounds their silicone mold helps.
Maybe making a timber surround for the individual cavity mold tray would be helpful.

 

[Millie]

5% cocoa butter isn't much at all - I wouldn't blame the butter just yet. Do you have photos? I have used cocoa butter in many soaps, one with 50% cocoa butter and no bloom in any of them.

 

[SunRiseArts]

You made a batch for sale? Did you test your recipe before you decided to sell it? I have never had problems with cocoa butter. I use it at 5%

 

[Saffron]

I too don't think cocoa butter is the culprit here. I made a small trial batch with 50% OO (no cocoa butter) and didn't let it get and it developed bloom, even though I'd sprayed it with isopropyl alcohol.
I'd recommend you try CPOP as PenelopeJane suggested with a small batch and let it go through full gel if you don't like the partial gel look, and see how that turns out.

 

[JuliaNegusuk]

Hi again. Thanks for all your responses. I've been doing some googling and I think PenelopeJane might be right in that it could be a type of soda ash, but not typical. But I've never had it before this recipe (and not while I was developing it either) so it must be a technique issue and something that has changed since I went from practising to "production line" I've been thinking about what I'm doing differently and I did always pretty religiously mix at 110 degrees f, which I tend not to do now. So I'm going to try and do a mini batch reproducing that technique. I also read that someone says it happens to her if she pours at very light trace, and again I do tend to do that more to help get the mix into all the sharp corners. So I'm going to try a test batch addressing these issues and see if it makes a difference. Failing that I may need to try CPOPing or gelling - but I don't want to, I am a COOOL soaper!

Thanks for all your help.

 

[JuliaNegusuk]

Well I have conducted my first experiment with the worst affected variety of the soap making a half batch of lemongrass and poppy seed soap. I heated the hard oils for longer, mixing them with soft oils at a higher temperature. I mixed (after much jiggling with bowls of hot and cold water to get the temperature right) at about 105 degrees f, I mixed to a medium thick trace instead of the very thin trace I had been mixing to, and only put in the fridge for about half an hour. I also left it for longer before unmoulding, after two days instead of after about 18 hours or so.

I can safely say that it looks exactly the same, possibly slightly worse. Before I didn't get the white stuff on top of the soap (which is why I thought it probably wasn't soda ash) only on the bottom and sides. This time I have it on the top as well, with the bottom corners looking like they have been dipped in bleach.

I may have to try CPOPing or something BUT - before I started making soap to sell I was soaping very successfully for about 5 years, soaping cool (mostly goat milk soap) and refrigerating and I NEVER ONCE GOT SODA ASH - so why now? That is partly why I blamed the cocoa butter because that is the main key difference as I didn't use it very much before this recipe. But then it didn't happen for the first few times with this recipe either and when it did only on one or two varieties. So I am totally baffled. Unless does goat milk soap not get soda ash? I am now using deionised water. Could it be that? I never used to use that. There are so many variables. I am almost at the end of this batch of cocoa butter so it will be interesting to see if it continues to happen with the new batch and I may try adding the oils singly, cocoa butter first. Or not use the deionised water. But not for a while I am too fed up and I am beginning to wonder whether it is negative vibes that is causing the problem!!!

I will report back but possibly not for a while.

 

[shunt2011]

Are you covering your soap after pouring into the molds? I've found that if I don't spray with alcohol and then cover the top and leave it covered until saponification is totally complete I get ash on individual molds. Especially if they don't gel. I even leave them covered for a few days after unmolding or sometimes they will develop ash on the surface that was in the mold. I too use 5-10% Cocoa Butter and don't have a problem.

 

[SaltedFig]

You took out goats milk and added extra cocoa butter? Perhaps the goats milk was just enough to warm it a little more, and now that's gone, your soap is getting too cold.

Try increasing the lye concentration (to increase the temperature that gel begins at, so you can avoid gel at room temperature) and don't refrigerate.

The combination (in addition to shunt2011's idea of spraying and covering) should be enough to avoid gel/partial gel and ash. If that doesn't work, you might want to consider gelling, or increasing the oil temperatures slightly.

 

[JuliaNegusuk]

Hi Shunt. No I don't do any of those things, but then in the previous trouble free five years when I was making soap for friends and family I didn't do it either. I don't really understand why, after all this time I seem to be having to fundamentally change the way I make soap after of years of 100% success. Maybe the soap gods have finally caught up with me and are punishing me for my years of casual, effort free success. In fact all my troubles, including my first case of DOS a few months ago (apart from a batch of olive oil soap that went almost entirely orange after about two years), have occurred since joining this forum. Maybe it is jinxed! And its not because I didn't now what to look for. I used to read about other peoples troubles on various sites with horror and wonder and immense gratitude that it wasn't happening to me. Not any more. I haven't the time, the money or sufficient dirty friends to keep making more naff soap addressing every eventuality. Never has supermarket soap looked so attractive.

I have discovered it does wash off in about 2 seconds. The resulting soap is weirdly shiny but at least doesn't look like its gone mouldy, but the prospect of washing about 100 bars of soap so I can sell it isn't filling me with joy either! But at least I suppose it won't be wasted that way.

Sorry, I am not sounding very grateful for people's help. I am, truly. But I am just very confused and frustrated. And most of the solutions being suggested, probably do work, but WHY do I have to start doing them now when I never did before. Some small specific thing must have changed to be causing this problem but it seems really hard to work out what.

 

[SaltedFig]

Julia, is there any chance your lye has degraded?

Has it been a little clumpier than usual?

(first DOS, extra ash ... it sounds a bit like a low lye concentration issue)

PS. Is there any chance you can post some photo's of the soaps?
PPS. Don't give up! You obviously know how to make soap, and everyone is here to help you get through this.

Hi Shunt. No I don't do any of those things, but then in the previous trouble free five years when I was making soap for friends and family I didn't do it either. I don't really understand why, after all this time I seem to be having to fundamentally change the way I make soap after of years of 100% success. Maybe the soap gods have finally caught up with me and are punishing me for my years of casual, effort free success. In fact all my troubles, including my first case of DOS a few months ago (apart from a batch of olive oil soap that went almost entirely orange after about two years), have occurred since joining this forum. Maybe it is jinxed! And its not because I didn't now what to look for. I used to read about other peoples troubles on various sites with horror and wonder and immense gratitude that it wasn't happening to me. Not any more. I haven't the time, the money or sufficient dirty friends to keep making more naff soap addressing every eventuality. Never has supermarket soap looked so attractive.

I have discovered it does wash off in about 2 seconds. The resulting soap is weirdly shiny but at least doesn't look like its gone mouldy, but the prospect of washing about 100 bars of soap so I can sell it isn't filling me with joy either! But at least I suppose it won't be wasted that way.

Sorry, I am not sounding very grateful for people's help. I am, truly. But I am just very confused and frustrated. And most of the solutions being suggested, probably do work, but WHY do I have to start doing them now when I never did before. Some small specific thing must have changed to be causing this problem but it seems really hard to work out what.

 

[penelopejane]

You are doing a weird combination of at least 2 different methods.
Try and get rid of it then work from there.
Between now and then it could be environmental temperatures, soaping temps, trace, lye, different batch of oils, different molds, different additives (clay GM, mica) etc.

 

[JuliaNegusuk]

Attempt at uploading pics. God they look awful!

On the left is a two layer sandalwood and bentonite clay soap. The white was poured first then cocoa powder added and poured again to get two simple layers. The soda ash seems to be formed along where the layers joined. It is not on top at all, but you can see the slightly "nibbled" look to the edges that were in the bottom of the mould and the whitish corners. The left is a top and bottom view of the lemongrass and poppy seed. All of these soaps looked absolutely pristine and perfect when first unmoulded. This developed over about two days following unmoulding.

This has happened to some degree on the lemongrass and poppy seed, the sandalwood and clay, the lavender and tussah silk, the mint and tea tree, the orange and patchouli and the cinnamon honey and oatmeal. Though they all look slightly different, some are worse than others, not all have the nibbled look to the edges. The plain soap (base recipe, no additives or EOs), the rosemary and sea salt and the coffee, pumice and sea salt soaps are all absolutely fine. They were all made using the same technique, but there have been differences as I came to the end of one batch of oils for example or started a new bottle of sodium hydroxide. But of the three "perfect" soaps, one was made first the other two made last. So one would have been made with the same oils and lye as the first few soaps and the others with the same as the last few. The one with the least amount of additives and the two with most amount of additives are the ones that are not affected. There simply does not appear to be a single factor that I can isolate between the successful and unsuccessful varieties. I have made three complete batches for sale so far. The first time all were fine except for the lemongrass and poppy seed variety, the second time all were fine except the tea tree and mint. This time most of the varieties are affected. I have used the same technique and the same mould across all these batches, and when I was developing the recipe, when I no problems at all! I have only recently started to use deionised water but that began on batch two so doesn't explain the first occurrence either.

GRRRRRRR!!!!!

CPOPing here I come. But as I only have one oven I'll have to eat salad while I am making soap!