Citric Acid

[penelopejane]

Here are some observations that may help others:
Obsidian and Dragongirl thanks for the advice about putting the CA in first then pouring in theNaOH. I changed my process when I started masterbatching the NaOH because I thought it couldn't dissolve more. Now I add a bit of water to dissolve the CA first, then add the NaOH - no more spots.

Soapee and soapmaker 3 calculate their KOH in dual lye recipes differently. Soapee uses 25% more KOH than soapmaker 3 in my recipe. My recipes using soapmaker 3 work, those using soapee make soft soap. Doesn't seem a huge difference (3g) but it works every time now so I am sticking to soapmaker 3.

The rind has something to do with gel. I've gone back to 30% lye concentration, soaping warmer - perfect gel all the way through - no more rind. 35% just doesn't work for me with my new set up.

 

[penelopejane]

Here are some observations that may help others:

The rind has something to do with gel. I've gone back to 30% lye concentration, soaping warmer - perfect gel all the way through - no more rind. 35% just doesn't work for me with my new set up.

This is not the solution. Still have spots. I am working through another possibility.

 

[penelopejane]

That looks like steric spots with partial gel to me. Have you adjusted temps recently or is the weather acting weird? 100% OO or something else?

I want to extend my heartfelt apologies to you for dismissing this suggestion so quickly. Problem was I was dealing with two problems.

I wasn't adding the NaOH to the CA and so when i soaped hot (which would have got rid of the spots) I still had spots. Once I solved the CA problem (thanks to obsidian and dragon girl) I still had the blotches. They didn't look like the star shaped stearic spots that I had seen. These are huge blotches.

Anyway as I was composing a new cry for help I realised everything with my soap went south when I started masterbatching and i thought about stearic spots. The splodges were intermittent because sometimes i used a fresh (hot) batch of masterlye (not noted in my soap diary). Also I think CPOP might have saved some batches but I can't use that method anymore.

So I am soaping hot -heating both the oil and the lye) mixing at about 43*C and the blotches have finally gone!

Thanks for all your help everyone.

 

[Cindy2428]

Glad you solved your problem... I love the science/problem-solving aspect of it

 

[Saponomancer]

I'm glad you figured it out!

 

[cascarral]

Hi! I've never worked with CA, can I add it to my brine soap? I only use a 10% concentrated salt water.

I've had some problems with DOS, I think it's because of a high SF but I don't want to reduce it since I use 30% CO. Thought CA might be an answer for this issue but after reading this post I'm wondering if there's a problem about adding two different salts to the lye mixture.

On this same subject... My citric acid is 2 years old, can I use it? or should I throw it away?

 

[penelopejane]

Hi! I've never worked with CA, can I add it to my brine soap? I only use a 10% concentrated salt water.

I've had some problems with DOS, I think it's because of a high SF but I don't want to reduce it since I use 30% CO. Thought CA might be an answer for this issue but after reading this post I'm wondering if there's a problem about adding two different salts to the lye mixture.

On this same subject... My citric acid is 2 years old, can I use it? or should I throw it away?

I use CA at 1% of oils and mix it into the water, then add the salt. No problem at all. If doing the split method I add it to the plain water portion. I don't think CA goes off!

You can use ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) to your oils when you buy them. But lowering your SF, keeping them in a cool environment with good ventilation and practicing really good hygiene practices when making and moving your soap makes a huge difference to DOS.

 

[cascarral]

Thank you, penelope

When you dissolve CA in your no lye liquid do you add to you oils or at trace? or it doesn't matter?

Do you think I can manage to dissolve in aloe vera juice the salt and the citric acid?

Yes, I'll definitely pay more attention to my manufacturing practices. I'm using 7 SF to counteract for the high CO, is it too high?

 

[cmzaha]

My brine soaps are 35% PKO with an 11% Superfat using a 25% salt brine. So you could possibly lower you superfat a little but I would not lower it as low as 7%. DOS has never been an issue for me in brine soaps even with the higher superfat.

I would just dissolve my CA by warming some of my liquid, then add it to the remaining required liquid add in the salt and make sure it is fully dissolved before adding in your lye. By then your water should be back to room temp or cooler before you add in the lye. I just find CA and salt dissolve better in warm water, but you do not want to mix lye in warm water.

 

[cascarral]

My brine soaps are 35% PKO with an 11% Superfat using a 25% salt brine. So you could possibly lower you superfat a little but I would not lower it as low as 7%. DOS has never been an issue for me in brine soaps even with the higher superfat.

I would just dissolve my CA by warming some of my liquid, then add it to the remaining required liquid add in the salt and make sure it is fully dissolved before adding in your lye. By then your water should be back to room temp or cooler before you add in the lye. I just find CA and salt dissolve better in warm water, but you do not want to mix lye in warm water.

Oh this is so good to know! In fact the soap that developed DOS doesn't have any salt in it... Maybe for my brine bars I don't have to use citric acid.

Why do you use such a high SF? Is it because of the PKO? or because of the salt?

 

[penelopejane]

Thank you, penelope

When you dissolve CA in your no lye liquid do you add to you oils or at trace? or it doesn't matter?
Do you think I can manage to dissolve in aloe vera juice the salt and the citric acid?
Yes, I'll definitely pay more attention to my manufacturing practices. I'm using 7 SF to counteract for the high CO, is it too high?

Oh this is so good to know! In fact the soap that developed DOS doesn't have any salt in it... Maybe for my brine bars I don't have to use citric acid.

Why do you use such a high SF? Is it because of the PKO? or because of the salt?

After I dissolve my salt and CA I generally add it to the Lye water mix because I use a Masterbatch Lye solution and this heats it up again. I soap at 40-42*C so I want my lye warm.

The CA and ROE help with DOS. Check DeeAnna's info but I think that it is the case that CA alone reduces soap scum. I use CA in all my soap (including salt bars) and it makes a huge difference to soap scum.

Cmzaha is using 25% brine which is a lot higher than yours. This will make a difference to the amount of SF you need. I use a really low SF for all my bars, regardless of how much salt they have in them. So you will have to test them for yourself and see if it makes a difference.

See my other post about DOS.

 

[cmzaha]

Oh this is so good to know! In fact the soap that developed DOS doesn't have any salt in it... Maybe for my brine bars I don't have to use citric acid.

Why do you use such a high SF? Is it because of the PKO? or because of the salt?

It is because of the PKO and the higher salt. For my regular bars with no salt I superfat at 2%. My regular salt bars that are 100% salt per lb of oil I superfat at 17% and as I mentioned my Brine Soaps I superfat at 11%. Salt Bars and Brine Bars require more CO or PKO in order to lather so will naturally be more drying then the salt will also add in a drying factor. Both brine and salt bars get better with longer aging.

 

[June beere]

How much CA do you add to your lye mix? And do you still add sodium lactate also?

 

[penelopejane]

How much CA do you add to your lye mix? And do you still add sodium lactate also?

I use 1% CA. I add it to the water.

I’ve never used sodium lactate. It hardens soap but doesn’t stop soap scum. Salt is a natural way to harden soap or use olive oil or palm oil.