Bubbles - effects of castor, sugar and other additives

[Mobjack Bay]

I was going to pose the questions and musings below in this thread, but then it started to feel like a hijack, so I decided to start a new thread.

@DeeAnna - I appreciate the very succinct, clear answer you gave about the effects of castor and sugar in post #11 of the other thread. This “oh, to be a chemist” soap maker has a few more how/why type questions for you when/if you have time.

The ricinoleic acid supplied by castor oil DOES increase the solubility of the soap somewhat... The other aspect of using castor is that it adds stability to the lather created by the other fatty acids in the soap. If the lather lasts longer, there's more lather to enjoy for a longer time.

Is the solubility effect due mostly to the bulkiness of the molecule, and is that because the bulkiness causes disruption of the crystalline structure? (you partially answered this question later in the post). I think I’ve read something, possibly in Dunn’s book, about the kinky olive oil molecule not lining up neatly in the soap matrix. I also remember from some of your earlier posts that the K in KOH is bigger than the Na in NaOH. According to Wikipedia, the hydroxyl functional group makes castor oil a bit more polar than the other fatty acids. Would that also help with solubility by changing the way the soap interacts with the water? I’m struggling a bit here, but I think I’m asking if the hydroxyl group makes it chemically easier for the soap to dissolve (as opposed to the effect on the crystalline structure that makes it easier for water to get in and around the soap molecules).

Sugar and other lather-boosting additives act in a similar way [to castor oil] -- they increase the solubility of a soap by interfering with the crystalline structure of the soap.

Articles I’ve read about making bubbles and bubble blowing liquid solutions mention that adding corn syrup or glycerin to homemade detergent-based bubble-blowing mixes makes the bubbles last longer. Apparently it works because the additives decrease the surface tension of the water and also because they slow down evaporation of the water. So then, in addition to effects on crystalline structure, can we assume that any dissolved/or dissolving sugar from a bar of soap in use has the same effects on surface tension and evaporation? Sorbitol is bulkier than sugar, I think, and if that bulkiness is retained in the presence of NaOH, maybe it’s an explanation for why it boosts bubbles a bit more than table sugar? It’s also a sugar alcohol. Does that mean it also serves as a polar solvent? (should I already know the answer? Something in my brain is telling me that I should be reading about making transparent CP and melt & pour. )

I’m still very much on the learning curve when it comes to understanding what might be happening with most of the other additives, especially the starches. So far I’ve read that the addition of NaOH to starch mixtures can change the structure of the starch, cause swelling/gelling, break the molecules down to peptides and sugars, and a lot more details that I haven’t been able to consolidate in my brain. For simplicity, I want to assume that any sugars that result from the breakdown of starches, will behave like added sugars. That still leaves a lot of potential for unusual things to be happening in the batter bowl.

This article (and linked articles) about what might be happening on the outside of starchy pretzel dough after it’s dipped in lye offers some clues and is a fun read.

 

[DeeAnna]

...Is the solubility effect due mostly to the bulkiness of the [ricinoleic acid] molecule, and is that because the bulkiness causes disruption of the crystalline structure?

Yes, that's part of the answer. The other part as you noted is the polar nature of the hydroxyl (-OH) group on the ricinoleic acid chain. That -OH group makes it easier for this type of soap molecule to dissolve in water.

I also remember from some of your earlier posts that the K in KOH is bigger than the Na in NaOH.

Yep, that's right!

...adding corn syrup or glycerin to homemade detergent-based bubble-blowing mixes makes the bubbles last longer. Apparently it works because the additives decrease the surface tension of the water and also because they slow down evaporation of the water. So then, in addition to effects on crystalline structure, can we assume that any dissolved/or dissolving sugar from a bar of soap in use has the same effects on surface tension and evaporation?

You're batting 1000 here.

Sorbitol is bulkier than sugar, I think, and if that bulkiness is retained in the presence of NaOH, maybe it’s an explanation for why it boosts bubbles a bit more than table sugar? It’s also a sugar alcohol. Does that mean it also serves as a polar solvent?

I'm not as familiar with the effects of sorbitol in soap, but I think you're probably right that sorbitol is chemically stable in soap and probably does contribute to lather stability and/or soap solubility.

Some sugars (aka the reducing sugars) are broken down by alkali, but non-reducing sugars are not as affected. Table sugar (mostly sucrose, a non-reducing sugar) is fairly stable. Honey (uh, think it's mostly glucose and fructose, both of which are reducing sugars) is degraded by alkali, which is why honey tends to darken in soap.

I’m still very much on the learning curve when it comes to understanding what might be happening with most of the other additives, especially the starches.

I agree starches do break down in soap batter, but I'm not sure specifically how that alters the soap.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

@DeeAnna Thank you! I need to think more about reducing sugars. If lye can break starches down all the way to sugars, I wonder what kind of sugars are formed. I don’t recall that there was any excess heating or acceleration when I added rice puree to batter.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

@DeeAnna I just re-read of your Soapy Stuff page on curing soap. Is it possible that sugar additives contribute to the salting-out process that leads to better lathering soap as a soap cures? I’m assuming the sugars remain in the liquid phase.

 

[Ephemerella]

Sorry to bust in with a complete non sequitur (though I am reading the topic with great interest, thank you @Mobjack Bay) — following the link reminded me that I've been itching to say to @DeeAnna: I am fairly certain I bought the most beautiful string of sleigh bells, hip strap bells, and perhaps even a saddle chime from you over a decade ago when I was driving my Morgan. My aged Mustang wore the neck strap every year delivering Christmas presents around the farm. Amazing, what a small world this is!

Please resume your regularly scheduled broadcast.

 

[DeeAnna]

...Is it possible that sugar additives contribute to the salting-out process that leads to better lathering soap as a soap cures? I’m assuming the sugars remain in the liquid phase....

I really don't think sugar contributes to "salting out." If anything, I'd think it would interfere with salting-out.

Salting-out occurs when the soap molecules cannot remain dissolved in liquid. Sodium ions reduce the solubility of the soap so the soap molecules have to take a solid form rather than remain dissolved in a liquid solution. I could argue that salting-out reduces the ability of the soap to lather in the sense that a solid soap has to dissolve in water before it is able to be aerated and form lather.

Sugar interferes with the crystalline structure of the solid soap, forcing the soap to stay in a liquid form or at least only form smaller solid crystals. That's why sugar is sometimes used as a solvent when making transparent soap -- smaller crystals allow light to penetrate through the soap. In effect, sugar makes it easier for the soap molecules to dissolve into water and then form lather.

...I am fairly certain I bought the most beautiful string of sleigh bells, hip strap bells, and perhaps even a saddle chime from you over a decade ago when I was driving my Morgan. My aged Mustang wore the neck strap every year delivering Christmas presents around the farm. Amazing, what a small world this is!...

Wow! You're right -- it IS a small world! I'm blown away by this connection between my soap making hobby and my sleigh bell biz. Thank you for sharing!!!!! I hope the sleigh bell straps have held up well over the years -- I seldom can follow up with my customers as the years go by, so I have no idea how the pieces I make hold up over time. Especially straps used on horses, as opposed to just used for display.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

@DeeAnna Thank you. I was thinking the sugar would act a bit like glycerin.

 

[DeeAnna]

@DeeAnna Thank you. I was thinking the sugar would act a bit like glycerin.

Yes, exactly!

 

[Ephemerella]

Wow! You're right -- it IS a small world! I'm blown away by this connection between my soap making hobby and my sleigh bell biz. Thank you for sharing!!!!! I hope the sleigh bell straps have held up well over the years -- I seldom can follow up with my customers as the years go by, so I have no idea how the pieces I make hold up over time. Especially straps used on horses, as opposed to just used for display.

I'm pleased to report they have held up beautifully! And I'll be honest, I'm brutal on my equipment, and so were my horses. The lovely grain hide you use has remained supple and crack-free despite being worn in all manner of snowy conditions (and not receiving the best treatment from me in terms of regular cleaning). The chrome on the bells has remained intact and shiny, and the brass ones still clean up shiny new. Every rivet is solid. The saddle chimes were given as a gift to a dear friend and sit on her mantle to this day.

Every Christmas Eve, I adorned my Mustang gelding with the neck strap and his festive red blanket. Across his back I criss crossed hay nets stuffed full with gifts for the barn owners and boarders, and off we would set, him with a spring in his step enjoying the rhythm of the bells, and we would visit every stall, every border, and pass out Christmas cheer...

But not before I would let the old gelding have his fun with the herd... before bringing him into the barn to clean him up for our Christmas tradition, I'd walk out into the field, throw the bells around his neck, and watch as he had the most fun rounding up a very confused herd that couldn't understand where all of this sudden bell ringing came from.

He stood so tall and was so proud of himself wearing those bells.

My old man passed gracefully 2 years ago at the age of 40. This tradition, and your bells, are one of my most cherished memories ever.

 

[SSC Oregon]

That was beautifully written!

 

[Zing]

I'm pleased to report they have held up beautifully! And I'll be honest, I'm brutal on my equipment, and so were my horses. The lovely grain hide you use has remained supple and crack-free despite being worn in all manner of snowy conditions (and not receiving the best treatment from me in terms of regular cleaning). The chrome on the bells has remained intact and shiny, and the brass ones still clean up shiny new. Every rivet is solid. The saddle chimes were given as a gift to a dear friend and sit on her mantle to this day.

Every Christmas Eve, I adorned my Mustang gelding with the neck strap and his festive red blanket. Across his back I criss crossed hay nets stuffed full with gifts for the barn owners and boarders, and off we would set, him with a spring in his step enjoying the rhythm of the bells, and we would visit every stall, every border, and pass out Christmas cheer...

But not before I would let the old gelding have his fun with the herd... before bringing him into the barn to clean him up for our Christmas tradition, I'd walk out into the field, throw the bells around his neck, and watch as he had the most fun rounding up a very confused herd that couldn't understand where all of this sudden bell ringing came from.

He stood so tall and was so proud of himself wearing those bells.

My old man passed gracefully 2 years ago at the age of 40. This tradition, and your bells, are one of my most cherished memories ever.

So touching. So appreciate you sharing this very visual memory! God bless these creatures great and small!

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm pleased to report they have held up beautifully! ...

Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. I buy my leather from the Wickett & Craig tannery in Pennsylvania.

Isn't it cute to watch as the horse herd reacts to sleigh bells? All of ours were super curious about that sound.

Years ago, I gently laid a coiled-up strap of bells on the back of one of our yearlings and my husband led Finn on a little walk around the pasture. If he had objected to this or became fearful, all I had to do was lift my hand to remove the bells from his back. Finn did react to the bells, but more in a puzzled way rather than scared. It was pretty funny at first -- every 10 steps or so, he'd give a small little skip with his back feet -- as he got used to the sound. After a short walk, he figured out HE was making the bells jingle, nothing bad was happening, and he started to really enjoy the rhythmic sound.

Our horses are getting older too .... we have quite a few bare patches of ground in the pasture where many of our elder horses are buried. We still have my first and most favorite mare Sissel and her daughter, though. It will be a really sad day for me when Sissel passes. She is the kindest and most honest horse I've ever known -- she always took very good care of me out on the trail.

Digression over ... thanks to the OP for their patience!

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. I buy my leather from the Wickett & Craig tannery in Pennsylvania.

Isn't it cute to watch as the horse herd reacts to sleigh bells? All of ours were super curious about that sound.

Years ago, I gently laid a coiled-up strap of bells on the back of one of our yearlings and my husband led Finn on a little walk around the pasture. If he had objected to this or became fearful, all I had to do was lift my hand to remove the bells from his back. Finn did react to the bells, but more in a puzzled way rather than scared. It was pretty funny at first -- every 10 steps or so, he'd give a small little skip with his back feet -- as he got used to the sound. After a short walk, he figured out HE was making the bells jingle, nothing bad was happening, and he started to really enjoy the rhythmic sound.

Our horses are getting older too .... we have quite a few bare patches of ground in the pasture where many of our elder horses are buried. We still have my first and most favorite mare Sissel and her daughter, though. It will be a really sad day for me when Sissel passes. She is the kindest and most honest horse I've ever known -- she always took very good care of me out on the trail.

Digression over ... thanks to the OP for their patience!

I'm almost wishing we had snow here so we could put sleigh bells on our horses!

 

[cmzaha]

I'm pleased to report they have held up beautifully! And I'll be honest, I'm brutal on my equipment, and so were my horses. The lovely grain hide you use has remained supple and crack-free despite being worn in all manner of snowy conditions (and not receiving the best treatment from me in terms of regular cleaning). The chrome on the bells has remained intact and shiny, and the brass ones still clean up shiny new. Every rivet is solid. The saddle chimes were given as a gift to a dear friend and sit on her mantle to this day.

Every Christmas Eve, I adorned my Mustang gelding with the neck strap and his festive red blanket. Across his back I criss crossed hay nets stuffed full with gifts for the barn owners and boarders, and off we would set, him with a spring in his step enjoying the rhythm of the bells, and we would visit every stall, every border, and pass out Christmas cheer...

But not before I would let the old gelding have his fun with the herd... before bringing him into the barn to clean him up for our Christmas tradition, I'd walk out into the field, throw the bells around his neck, and watch as he had the most fun rounding up a very confused herd that couldn't understand where all of this sudden bell ringing came from.

He stood so tall and was so proud of himself wearing those bells.

My old man passed gracefully 2 years ago at the age of 40. This tradition, and your bells, are one of my most cherished memories ever.

What a beautiful story. Do you mind if I cut and paste this into a message for my granddaughter? I know she would love to read the story. No way would her ornery horse go for bells around her neck or on her saddle but I could imagine Autumn trying such with Pistol. Believe me, the horse's name fits her.

I like sorbitol for bubbles. LOL, did that work for the OP?...

 

[VikingChick]

I'm pleased to report they have held up beautifully! And I'll be honest, I'm brutal on my equipment, and so were my horses. The lovely grain hide you use has remained supple and crack-free despite being worn in all manner of snowy conditions (and not receiving the best treatment from me in terms of regular cleaning). The chrome on the bells has remained intact and shiny, and the brass ones still clean up shiny new. Every rivet is solid. The saddle chimes were given as a gift to a dear friend and sit on her mantle to this day.

Every Christmas Eve, I adorned my Mustang gelding with the neck strap and his festive red blanket. Across his back I criss crossed hay nets stuffed full with gifts for the barn owners and boarders, and off we would set, him with a spring in his step enjoying the rhythm of the bells, and we would visit every stall, every border, and pass out Christmas cheer...

But not before I would let the old gelding have his fun with the herd... before bringing him into the barn to clean him up for our Christmas tradition, I'd walk out into the field, throw the bells around his neck, and watch as he had the most fun rounding up a very confused herd that couldn't understand where all of this sudden bell ringing came from.

He stood so tall and was so proud of himself wearing those bells.

My old man passed gracefully 2 years ago at the age of 40. This tradition, and your bells, are one of my most cherished memories ever.

I love this so much!

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I like sorbitol for bubbles. LOL, did that work for the OP?...

Actually, I know how to make bubbles. I started this thread to discuss the factors that lead to the formation of bigger and better bubbles. Not what to do, but why it works.

 

[gunnyblu]

Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. I buy my leather from the Wickett & Craig tannery in Pennsylvania.

Isn't it cute to watch as the horse herd reacts to sleigh bells? All of ours were super curious about that sound.

Years ago, I gently laid a coiled-up strap of bells on the back of one of our yearlings and my husband led Finn on a little walk around the pasture. If he had objected to this or became fearful, all I had to do was lift my hand to remove the bells from his back. Finn did react to the bells, but more in a puzzled way rather than scared. It was pretty funny at first -- every 10 steps or so, he'd give a small little skip with his back feet -- as he got used to the sound. After a short walk, he figured out HE was making the bells jingle, nothing bad was happening, and he started to really enjoy the rhythmic sound.

Our horses are getting older too .... we have quite a few bare patches of ground in the pasture where many of our elder horses are buried. We still have my first and most favorite mare Sissel and her daughter, though. It will be a really sad day for me when Sissel passes. She is the kindest and most honest horse I've ever known -- she always took very good care of me out on the trail.

Digression over ... thanks to the OP for their patience!

DeeAnna, sorry to make another pass on this. Do you have a website for your Bells you could send me?

 

[DeeAnna]

DeeAnna, sorry to make another pass on this. Do you have a website for your Bells you could send me?

My website is Classic Bells: Selling and Restoring Antique Horse and Sleigh Bells To keep this vaguely related to soap making, I have articles about soap making in a section of my website -- Soapy Stuff

Now back to the OP's topic!