BTMS 50 as substitute for BTMS 25 in liquid hair conditioner?

[MrsZ]

I would like to make this hair conditioner recipe from Whole Elise. It calls for BTMS 25, and I have BTMS 50 and want to use it if possible. Will that work? I like a thick conditioner, but I don't know if the BTMS 50 would make it too stiff. I apologize if this has already been covered here. I did search, but sometimes my finding skills are a little lacking.

Also, I don't have Cetrimonium Chloride. I can buy it easily, but I keep hearing that it has a high potential for irritation, and I think I read that it isn't considered a safe ingredient in Europe, so I might not use it. The Humblebee and Me ingredient encyclopedia says Honeyquat could be a substitute, but it doesn't say how. Could I replace the Cetrimonium Chloride 1:1 with the Honeyquat? I have Honeyquat already so it would be nice to use up.

I've made conditioner bars before, and prefer a liquid conditioner.

This is the recipe:

Water Phase:​

• 195g Distilled Water or Hydrosol
• 12.5g Cetrimonium Chloride
• 7.5g Glycerine
• 1.25g Guar Gum

Oil Phase:​

• 15g Coconut Oil
• 10g BTMS-25 (conditioning emulsifying wax)
• 5g Cetyl Alcohol

Cool Down 1:​

• 2.5g Hydrolysed Protein
• 2.5g D Panthenol (vitamin B5)
• 2.5g Preservative Eco (broad-spectrum preservative)
• 2.5g Vitamin E Oil (antioxidant)
• 2.5g (max) Essential Oils (optional)

Cool Down 2:​

• Citric Acid (pH Adjuster)

 

[DeeAnna]

Centrimonium chloride is a surfactant that has antiseptic and static eliminating properties. If you don't want to use it, I'd consider substituting water instead, not honeyquat, which is a humectant.

You've already got one humectant in the formulation -- the glycerin -- so I'm not sure I'd substitute honeyquat in place of the centrimonium chloride. Use one or the other humectant, but not a double dose.

I know people say BTMS 25 and BTMS 50 behave somewhat differently in lotions (which is essentially what you're making here), but when I've subbed one for the other, I haven't noticed much if any difference. But I make lotions only occasionally as a hobby and they're for my personal use. I'm sure I miss some of the nuances that more particular and experienced makers might notice.

Maybe you're like me and won't see a big difference; maybe you might. In the end, you'll simply have make a test batch and see what you think.

 

[MrsZ]

@DeeAnna thank you!

 

[DeeAnna]

Glad I could help. Remember though that these are my opinions, not hard facts. I hope others chime in with their perspectives.

 

[Saponificarian]

I have kinky 4C hair. I have to use BTMS 50. The same percentage of BTMS 25 doesn't work as well, and when I increased the percentage of BTMS 25 to try and match the quaternary portion in BTMS 50, the conditioner was too thick and still not as conditioning as BTMS 50. I think you have the better BTMS for conditioner.

You can substitute BTMS 50 1:1 for BMTS 25 and tweak if it is too conditioning {especially if you have fine hair}. In lotion, I don't think it will really matter much. The BTMS 25 might be slightly thicker because of the higher cetearyl alcohol, but I don't use BTMS in lotion.

 

[MrsZ]

I have kinky 4C hair. I have to use BTMS 50. The same percentage of BTMS 25 doesn't work as well, and when I increased the percentage of BTMS 25 to try and match the quaternary portion in BTMS 50, the conditioner was too thick and still not as conditioning as BTMS 50. I think you have the better BTMS for conditioner.

You can substitute BTMS 50 1:1 for BMTS 25 and tweak if it is too conditioning {especially if you have fine hair}. In lotion, I don't think it will really matter much. The BTMS 25 might be slightly thicker because of the higher cetearyl alcohol, but I don't use BTMS in lotion.

Thank you! I'll definitely go ahead with the btms 50.

 

[justjacqui]

BTMS-50 is 50% Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) 35%-45% Cetyl Alcohol (and) 5-10% Butylene Glycol

BTMS-25 is 25% Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) 75% Cetearyl Alcohol

BTMS-50 is more conditioning but thickens less. BTMS-25 is less conditioning but thickens more due to the cetearyl alcohol.

In your formula you have 10g of BTMS-25 which is 2.5g Behentrimonium Methosulfate and 7.5g Cetearyl Alcohol.

To swap this out for BTMS-50 you could try using 5g of BTMS-50 which would give you 2.5g of Behentrimonium Methosulfate and ~2g Cetyl Alcohol. You then could make up the difference with an extra 5g of Cetearyl Alcohol. This won't be identical due to the butylene glycol in the BTMS-50 and the difference in thickening between cetyl and cetearyl alcohol but it will get you pretty close.

Hope this helps.

 

[MrsZ]

BTMS-50 is 50% Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) 35%-45% Cetyl Alcohol (and) 5-10% Butylene Glycol

BTMS-25 is 25% Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) 75% Cetearyl Alcohol

BTMS-50 is more conditioning but thickens less. BTMS-25 is less conditioning but thickens more due to the cetearyl alcohol.

In your formula you have 10g of BTMS-25 which is 2.5g Behentrimonium Methosulfate and 7.5g Cetearyl Alcohol.

To swap this out for BTMS-50 you could try using 5g of BTMS-50 which would give you 2.5g of Behentrimonium Methosulfate and ~2g Cetyl Alcohol. You then could make up the difference with an extra 5g of Cetearyl Alcohol. This won't be identical due to the butylene glycol in the BTMS-50 and the difference in thickening between cetyl and cetearyl alcohol but it will get you pretty close.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the information! I was totally wrong about btms 50 thickening more. I have cetyl alcohol, but not cetearyl. I'm hoping to play around with it in the next few days.

 

[Servant4Christ]

... I'm hoping to play around with it in the next few days.

Did you end up making this? I'd love to know how it went and what you think of the end product. This recipe and her moisturizing shampoo recipe have been on my "must try" list for 4 years now. I've been too chicken to try them, though, ever since I thought my hair was going to fall out testing a very well-known and loved recipe for shampoo bars.

 

[MrsZ]

Did you end up making this? I'd love to know how it went and what you think of the end product. This recipe and her moisturizing shampoo recipe have been on my "must try" list for 4 years now. I've been too chicken to try them, though, ever since I thought my hair was going to fall out testing a very well-known and loved recipe for shampoo bars.

No, I haven't yet. Homeschooling is taking up most of my craft time at the moment, but I'll let you know when I do get to it!

 

[Servant4Christ]

No, I haven't yet. Homeschooling is taking up most of my craft time at the moment, but I'll let you know when I do get to it!

Homeschoolers unite! High five!

 

[AliOop]

To swap this out for BTMS-50 you could try using 5g of BTMS-50 which would give you 2.5g of Behentrimonium Methosulfate and ~2g Cetyl Alcohol. You then could make up the difference with an extra 5g of Cetearyl Alcohol. This won't be identical due to the butylene glycol in the BTMS-50 and the difference in thickening between cetyl and cetearyl alcohol but it will get you pretty close.

I have cetyl alcohol, but not cetearyl.

To make it even more fun, you can make your own cetearyl by mixing cetyl alcohol and stearyl alcohol. I've done that when I've run out of cetearyl and it worked just fine! Here's what Marie at Humblebee and Me has to say:

Cetearyl alcohol is available in a variety of different blends of cetyl and stearyl alcohol, and these different blends will perform differently. The cetearyl alcohol I use is 30% cetyl alcohol and 70% stearyl alcohol (also referred to as 30/70 cetearyl alcohol). You can also purchase 50/50, 60/40, and 70/30.

 

[MrsZ]

To make it even more fun, you can make your own cetearyl by mixing cetyl alcohol and stearyl alcohol. I've done that when I've run out of cetearyl and it worked just fine! Here's what Marie at Humblebee and Me has to say:

Cetearyl alcohol is available in a variety of different blends of cetyl and stearyl alcohol, and these different blends will perform differently. The cetearyl alcohol I use is 30% cetyl alcohol and 70% stearyl alcohol (also referred to as 30/70 cetearyl alcohol). You can also purchase 50/50, 60/40, and 70/30.

That's really cool! Thank you!

 

[Servant4Christ]

@MrsZ I'm not sure if you've noticed, so thought I'd mention:

Some of Whole Elise's ingredients are named a bit different here in the States. What she has listed as guar gum is called cationic guar gum here. Also, what she has listed as vitamin e is more specifically vitamin e MT50 mixed tocopherol. These types of nuances in her recipes are what kept me from trying any of her recipes early on in my journey. I already have dl-panthenol (powdered) on hand, so I'm not sure if I'll buy the d-panthenol (liquid) that the recipe calls for or research how to incorporate what I have instead. Pretty sure I can incorporate the powder into the water phase, but I'll need to figure out how much to use because the concentration strength might be different for the powder than the liquid.

 

[MrsZ]

@MrsZ I'm not sure if you've noticed, so thought I'd mention:

Some of Whole Elise's ingredients are named a bit different here in the States. What she has listed as guar gum is called cationic guar gum here. Also, what she has listed as vitamin e is more specifically vitamin e MT50 mixed tocopherol. These types of nuances in her recipes are what kept me from trying any of her recipes early on in my journey. I already have dl-panthenol (powdered) on hand, so I'm not sure if I'll buy the d-panthenol (liquid) that the recipe calls for or research how to incorporate what I have instead. Pretty sure I can incorporate the powder into the water phase, but I'll need to figure out how much to use because the concentration strength might be different for the powder than the liquid.

Oh, thank you for pointing this out! I was aware of the difference in names on all except the guar gum. I even ordered regular guar gum to make it. I will be needing to buy cationic guar gum I suppose. Thank you again!

 

[AliOop]

Oh, thank you for pointing this out! I was aware of the difference in names on all except the guar gum. I even ordered regular guar gum to make it. I will be needing to buy cationic guar gum I suppose. Thank you again!

FYI, I use regular guar gum with no problems. For this type of recipe, I honestly don't think you will notice a difference in the final product. Where you would more likely notice it would be in a facial serum or gel. Not only is total quantity of ingredients in a batch of serum v a batch of hair conditioner usually much smaller, so is the water content. With less water and less total product, minute differences in texture are much more obvious. Also, you will be much more aware of the texture and feel of an ingredient that is applied under your eyes, as opposed to your hair. So, I'd try it with your regular guar gum first and see what you think. HTH!

 

[Servant4Christ]

FYI, I use regular guar gum with no problems. For this type of recipe, I honestly don't think you will notice a difference in the final product. Where you would more likely notice it would be in a facial serum or gel. Not only is total quantity of ingredients in a batch of serum v a batch of hair conditioner usually much smaller, so is the water content. With less water and less total product, that makes minute differences in texture much more obvious. Also, you will be much more aware of the texture and feel of an ingredient that is applied under your eyes, as opposed to your hair. So, I'd try it with your regular guar gum first and see what you think. HTH!

Thank you for this information. I've never used guar gum in anything but knew there was a difference in cationic vs non-cationic from oodles of time watching Humblebee YT videos. The only thing I still don't like about this recipe is that the percents do not add up to 100% which drives my inner perfectionist absolutely bonkers.

 

[MrsZ]

FYI, I use regular guar gum with no problems. For this type of recipe, I honestly don't think you will notice a difference in the final product. Where you would more likely notice it would be in a facial serum or gel. Not only is total quantity of ingredients in a batch of serum v a batch of hair conditioner usually much smaller, so is the water content. With less water and less total product, that makes minute differences in texture much more obvious. Also, you will be much more aware of the texture and feel of an ingredient that is applied under your eyes, as opposed to your hair. So, I'd try it with your regular guar gum first and see what you think. HTH!

Very good to know, thank you!

 

[AliOop]

Thank you for this information. I've never used guar gum in anything but knew there was a difference in cationic vs non-cationic from oodles of time watching Humblebee YT videos. The only thing I still don't like about this recipe is that the percents do not add up to 100% which drives my inner perfectionist absolutely bonkers.

Yes, that would bother me, as well! I wasn't sure if the YT recipe to which you referred was from Whole Elise, or Marie at HB&M. Either way, have you checked the partner blog post on the applicable website for any corrections? You can post a comment at the bottom of the post and ask for clarification. Although some of Marie's answers can be a tad snippy, I think she'd appreciate knowing if something needs to be corrected or clarified. I haven't been on Elise's site recently to see if or how she tends to respond.

Very good to know, thank you!

You are welcome.

 

[Servant4Christ]

Yes, that would bother me, as well! I wasn't sure if the YT recipe to which you referred was from Whole Elise, or Marie at HB&M. Either way, have you checked the partner blog post on the applicable website for any corrections? You can post a comment at the bottom of the post and ask for clarification. Although some of Marie's answers can be a tad snippy, I think she'd appreciate knowing if something needs to be corrected or clarified. I haven't been on Elise's site recently to see if or how she tends to respond.


You are welcome.

Here's the recipe (first link below). The percents that don't add up are in the interactive formula calculator (second link below). There are some boxes colored green, though, which might have something to do with the numbers that I'm just not quite understanding.

https://wholeelise.com/blog/how-to-make-hair-conditioner/

https://wholeelise.com/calculators/hair-conditioner-formula/?weight=250&unit=g