Bentonite Permanently affected by Stainless Steel?

[Garden Gives Me Joy]

I gather that, the desirable electric charge of bentonite clay will change if the clay makes contact with metal, even good quality stainless steel.

Is that change irreversible? In other words, after being removed from a stainless steel bowl, spoon, etc, will the clay return to its desirable state and provide its benefits like extracting excess oil and toxins? If not, what will that look like and can using the soap be harmful? What would be the signs that the phenomenon has happened?

Happy for other discussions regarding materials other than stainless steel (vinegar, sulphur, pumice, etc).

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

I gather that, the desirable electric charge of bentonite clay will change if the clay makes contact with metal, even good quality stainless steel.

Is that change irreversible? In other words, after being removed from a stainless steel bowl, spoon, etc, will the clay return to its desirable state and provide its benefits like extracting excess oil and toxins? If not, what will that look like and can using the soap be harmful? What would be the signs that the phenomenon has happened?

Happy for other discussions regarding materials other than stainless steel (vinegar, sulphur, pumice, etc).

This is interesting' hmmm. If this is true & its a negative outcome for soap then I'l start mixing my lye in a plastic container..

 

[glendam]

This reminded me of this article by Marie from Humble bee and me:
https://www.humblebeeandme.com/bentonite-clay-and-diy-beauty/

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

This reminded me of this article by Marie from Humble bee and me:
https://www.humblebeeandme.com/bentonite-clay-and-diy-beauty/

Awesome Info.

 

[user 49910]

This reminded me of this article by Marie from Humble bee and me:
https://www.humblebeeandme.com/bentonite-clay-and-diy-beauty/

Excellent read on the info you supplied, so therefore as I understood the article, unless the water is either very base or very acidic there is nothing to worry about regarding an ionic exchange with bentonite.

 

[glendam]

@Professor Bernardo yes, that is what I understood. So probably it should not be mixed with the lye water if one did not want that ionic transfer to happen, since lye is basic (alkaline)

 

[Garden Gives Me Joy]

So the process should ideally look like this? Happy for corrections or improvements, including those that transcend the matter of ionic transfer.

-- HP --

• Set aside bentonite clay in combination with superfats
• At 'potato' phase, add the bentonite clay slurry

-- CP (when not swirling) --

• Set aside bentonite clay in combination with a small amount of combined base oils
• After thick trace, add the bentonite clay slurry

-- CP (when swirling) --

• Set aside bentonite clay in combination with a small amount of combined base oils
• After thin trace, add the bentonite clay slurry

...
New to bentonite clay. My first CP batch was too soft, possibly because I soaked it in water ... and it is a brine soap (which attracts atmostpheric moisture).

 

[Misschief]

I would assume, from that article, that adding it to CP batter at any point would be pointless as it will be in contact with the lye monster until the batter has fully saponified, at which time it is no longer liquid.

 

[glendam]

I would assume, from that article, that adding it to CP batter at any point would be pointless as it will be in contact with the lye monster until the batter has fully saponified, at which time it is no longer liquid.

I think it would depend on whether there is a metal instrument or container being used after the clay slurry is introduced. From what I understand, @Garden Gives Me Joy, it would be best to add it after you are done using the stick blender, since the blades are metal. Provided everything else you use (containers, spoons or spatulas) do not have any metal that can come into contact with the batter.

 

[user 49910]

I just add the bentonite to the cooled lye water and have had no issues, so far.

 

[Aromasuzie]

I've just been reading this thread, and I am aware of the Humblebee and me article. Surely at 1tsp PPO the removal of toxins would be a moot point due to the amount present (%), within the soap. Most of the research done on clay regarding "removal of toxins" was oral/internal use. I love clay in soap and recommend face masks using clay, but would certainly not tout toxin removal as a therapeutic action for clay. I dilute the clay with water as I find it easier than mixing with oil. I'm about to add some to lye water to see if the colour is more intense. From what I understand, you can add the clay to pretty much any phase in which ever way suits you the best. I also understand that the colour of clay doesn't necessarily deepen the more you add? I'm sure someone has experimented with proportions? I like to stick to the rules initially and then push the limits, unless safety is involved.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Bentonite clay lives here in my back yard. I hated the stuff as a gardener because it was like hitting brick with my hand trowel! YIKES! But. That changed. Ever since I first started soaping in 2003, I have had a long-time love affair with the stuff.

The first time I used it, I put a shovel full in a bucket, rinsed with water 3 times, while agitating it to get all the debris and non-clay dirt out of it. Filled the bucket with water and let set over night. The next morning there was this lovely powder sitting at the bottom of the bucket. I carefully poured the water out and let the clay air-dry in the sun.

One thing that wasn't mentioned in the article is that, of all the clays, it is very slippery when mixed with water and is used with hydraulic drills for that reason. I use it in my Shaving Soap (1 tablespoon PPO) for the same reason. The razor glides easily over the face without the nicks that used to appear when DH came down for breakfast with bits of tissue stuck to his face. It's a good thing.

I use it in my Detox Bath Salts that leave my normally dry skin feeling clean, nourished, and smooth as a new-born.

It's my favorite clay mask. I can feel it tingle and tighten shortly after applying it to my face & neck. Once rinsed off, my face looks fresh, clean and perky. Definitely helps with circulation as my cheeks are glowing.

I no longer dig it up from the now landscaped back yard. Instead, I buy Aztec Healing Clay locally but you can also find it on line.

 

[Aromasuzie]

@Zany_in_CO I've had clay issues when gardening too, but it's the pottery stuff that bounces my spade back up at me. I love that you were able to process your own, very cool! I've had a quick look and can now source bentonite clay from our own country, very cleverly marketed as NZ Glacial Clay, which sounds rather fancy! I do love the feel of clay in soaps too. I've just seen a Humblebee & me recipe that uses 10 tsp PPO. I might have to experiment upping the proportion of clay each time, I wonder if there's a difference in feel between 5 tsp to 10 tsp of clay PPO?

 

[KimW]

Bentonite clay lives here in my back yard. I hated the stuff as a gardener because it was like hitting brick with my hand trowel! YIKES! But. That changed. Ever since I first started soaping in 2003, I have had a long-time love affair with the stuff.

One thing that wasn't mentioned in the article is that, of all the clays, it is very slippery when mixed with water and is used with hydraulic drills for that reason. I use it in my Shaving Soap (1 tablespoon PPO) for the same reason. The razor glides easily over the face without the nicks that used to appear when DH came down for breakfast with bits of tissue stuck to his face. It's a good thing.

I no longer dig it up from the now landscaped back yard. Instead, I buy Aztec Healing Clay locally but you can also find it on line.

@Johnez, RE: your post about your shaving soap gliding better. Zany does it again.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

@Johnez, RE: your post about your shaving soap gliding better. Zany does it again.

Although you certainly do not 100% need clay for good glide - many top rated and super glidey shave soaps do not use it. I don't use it in mine and it is still very good indeed.

But I also agree that the benefits of an additive need to have at least a reasonable basis if it isn't or can't be actually proven - clay does have an effect in soap, but I wouldn't assume that all the benefits of clay (such as detox) come through in soap when used in the quantity that it is and how long lather is left on the body. If someone claimed it was like a facemask for your whole body, I would call that out as utter nonsense.

So to that end, if the clay is affected by contact with the metal in the high pH phases does it matter? Do the actual benefits of the clay in a soap depend on the clay having its original condition?

 

[Johnez]

@Johnez, RE: your post about your shaving soap gliding better. Zany does it again.

I'm taking a hard look at clays. Conveniently enough I can source locally, super happy about that. I've also read clays (tho not sure about Bentonite in particular) help hold scent, which you know my last scent has issue with in general. Clays used to be widely used and now they seem to have been pushed away. I don't care, if it glides it glides-more clay for me!

Although you certainly do not 100% need clay for good glide - many top rated and super glidey shave soaps do not use it. I don't use it in mine and it is still very good indeed.

But I also agree that the benefits of an additive need to have at least a reasonable basis if it isn't or can't be actually proven - clay does have an effect in soap, but I wouldn't assume that all the benefits of clay (such as detox) come through in soap when used in the quantity that it is and how long lather is left on the body. If someone claimed it was like a facemask for your whole body, I would call that out as utter nonsense.

So to that end, if the clay is affected by contact with the metal in the high pH phases does it matter? Do the actual benefits of the clay in a soap depend on the clay having its original condition?

I ran across a post a little while ago in my research that drove home the point of whole recipe formulation being key as to whether clay is useful or not. I can't dig up the post right now, but the gist of it was that the clay was absolutely necessary for a particular recipe, and only when other changes were made did the clay become unnecessary. It was an interesting point of view that reminded me of the balancing act that soap making can be. With regards to "health benefits," I'm a cynic in that regard and will let myself be pleasantly surprised if any of that pans out. Thankfully most utensils I'm using are either plastic or silicon, not even a stick blender as it's impractical for the small batches of shave soap I'm making. While I'm doubtful about the "detox" claims, even if they were true is it really helpful? Say it does detox, what if it pulls lead or whatever from an object and then keeps it-while it's sitting on your skin? That's kinda why I don't put much credence into any "new thing" health claim. There's just too much room for error, misinterpretation, or simple lack of knowledge of what the complete picture really is.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I've had a quick look and can now source bentonite clay from our own country, very cleverly marketed as NZ Glacial Clay

Cool! Maybe you could dig some up from your yard as well? We were able to access info from the County Clerk's office (on another matter) that showed the presence of Bentonite in our soil. You might want to check with whatever local governmental dept has jurisdiction.

I wonder if there's a difference in feel between 5 tsp to 10 tsp of clay PPO?

Generally speaking, clays are added to soap at the rate of 1 tsp. - 1 Tbls PPO. 5-10 tsp sounds like too much, unless you have some purpose in mind, like whole-body mud bath. Keep in mind that clays absorb the water in the batch so you may have to hydrate ahead of time to prevent the batch from seizing.

FWIW (For What It's Worth), I used 2 tablespoons of Bentonite as one of the tweaks to my shave soap. 1 tablespoon proved to be enough for its intended purpose so I stayed with that.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I've also read clays (tho not sure about Bentonite in particular) help hold scent, which you know my last scent has issue with in general.

I've found that to be true. For that purpose, I add White Kaolin to some batches, not only to help stick the scent, but to lay down a white foundation for colorant. It also seems to improve the texture of the soap, to my mind at least.

I ran across a post a little while ago in my research that drove home the point of whole recipe formulation being key as to whether clay is useful or not. ... It was an interesting point of view that reminded me of the balancing act that soap making can be.

Exactly. I really should post my Shave Soap. I tweaked it for 3 years before settling on the latest "GEN III" formula. Here are the Ingredients along with the purpose they serve:

Ingredients: Water, Aloe Vera (soothing)
Coconut Oil (lather)
Olive Oil (holds moisture close to skin)
Palm Oil (high oleic and palmitc acids)
Avocado Oil (close shave)
Castor Oil (lather & conditioning)
Cocoa Butter (moisturizer; skin softener)
Bentonite Clay (slickery; smooth glide)
Noxema (Original) Cream: Stearic Acid, Linseed Oil and Soybean Oil (antibacterial humectants to seal moisture in)
Vitamin E (skin loving antioxidant)
Fragrance.

NOTES: DH gets a great, close shave, with no nicks, no 5-0'clock shadow and without having to constantly rinse the blade. He can shave his whole face in one go. The blade rinses clean easily. I love it because it leaves my legs feeling soft, smooth and I don't have to shave as often any more.

 

[Johnez]

I've found that to be true. For that purpose, I add White Kaolin to some batches, not only to help stick the scent, but to lay down a white foundation for colorant. It also seems to improve the texture of the soap, to my mind at least.

Have never seen a soap quite like this, sounds amazing. I've read references to your soap for some time-I appreciate your willingness to share not only ingredients but the reasons behind them. The addition of some of the non-traditional (and sometimes derided) ingredients and their value is particularly interesting as it appears you've bucked many of the wetshavers preconceived notions and biases (unfounded?) to create something that just works really well. Very cool Zany, I hope I can get to this point in experimentation.