Beginner's Question

[Lotus]

I don't think Rosemary Oleoresin Extract (ROE) is the same thing as Rosemary essential oil (Rosemary EO) although I can certainly see why we interchange them with the letters being so similar. Here's an article from about.com about ROE.

http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/soapglossary/f/What-Is-Rosemary-Oleoresin-Extract.htm

I've never used ROE, but I do try to remember to put a few drops of vitamin E in each new bottle of soft oils as I open them. I don't know if it helps prevent DOS - I've only had one case when I used 17% or 19% (I forget!) sunflower oil in a batch - but it can't hurt. I haven't been soaping a full year yet so I guess I could still have some DOS show up, but I do a few things to try and prevent it - I only use fresh oils, I stick with basic oils like coconut, lard, tallow, olive, castor, a little shea in a couple of batches (and I do put avacado in shampoo bars), and I store my soap on pegboard that has been covered with freezer paper. I built a curing rack out of PVC and the covered pegboard is what I use for shelves. Air can circulate around each bar this way so maybe that will help prevent DOS. The bars don't touch each other. They're spaced precisely 1/4 inch apart. (Okay, just kidding about the spacing. Well, at least the "precisely" part.) Someone here thought their DOS came from storing the soap directly on cardboard - makes sense that something from the cardboard leached out. If I fill up my curing rack I plan to store my soap in freezer paper lined boxes. When I get a bedroom full of boxes of soap, I pray that someone will come and conduct an intervention.

Hey, first thing! This freezer paper stuff I hear so much about. I'd never heard of it, until I came here. I was so confused. So, I've actively looked at all of my grocery stores for it, and none of them have it. Granted, I can find it online, but that feels so stupid and pointless. It must not be a big enough seller here, for anyone to supply it. Just a strange thought. But, wouldn't wax or parchment paper be basically the same thing, more or less, where soaping is concerned?

About the cardboard thing, I once cured my soaps in a cardboard box and BAD things happened. I don't recommend this. The whole thing just went to "crap!" The oils seeping out, were all soaked into the cardboard, the soap got all rancid and mushy. It was just a bad picture. I tossed the whole mess out.

About the ROE and Vitamin E thing. Again, in my soap making book, there is a few parts where they mention its use as a "stabilizing agent." They really only use the vitamin E, probably mostly because it is much more easily available. But, they do mention to make sure that the vitamin E that you get is 100% vitamin E, as there are many that are not. I'll come back with a photo from that page of my book. Standby.

 

[chicklet]

Well that's just weird about the freezer paper not being available in Oregon. I get mine at Walmart. The brand is Reynolds. Wax paper or parchment paper would work for soap storage. I just like the freezer paper. The shiny side is coated and can be wiped off if need be, and it's very sturdy.

 

[Lotus]

Yeah, Chicklet. Weird, right? I actually haven't checked walmart. I always forget to go there. I will check there, before I give up.

The shiny side can be wiped off? Weird and cool. Okay, I'm determined to find some!! Thanks.

 

[AngelMomma]

I get my freezer paper at WM also. Its in the wrap section as well as the craft section. Some people use it for crafts I guess.

I place a sheet in the bottom of a cardboard box that is about 3inches deep. Then I place my bars on their side in the box. I then cover lightly with paper from a brown lunch sack. I have always had perfect luck with curing that way. It seems to help wick away any excess moisture, as I live in Humid Louisiana.

 

[Kay]

That is really weird that OR doesn't carry freezer paper.:-? What do people there use to wrap meats and stuff in before putting in the freezer?
Yes, it has a shiny side, which is the side you want up against your soap.

 

[Lotus]

We wrap our meats in loads of seran wrap (plastic wrap). If you really want to prevent freezer burn, you'll then either put that in a plastic freezer bag, or wrap it in additional foil, or whatever you have. Nope, I've never seen or heard of Freezer paper. And I'm not just in Oregon, I live in the biggest city, here. So, definitely weird.

Thanks for the picture.

 

[Kay]

You're welcome. The other side looks like....well....paper! :mrgreen:

 

[Kay]

Hey Lotus. I just remembered something else I read. From what I understand parchment paper might be better than wax paper. Don't ask me why, but apparently some people have issues with wax paper sticking to the soap. So going with parchment paper might be your best bet.

 

[Lotus]

Thank you, Kay. I have found, that parchment paper seems to have better all around uses, most of the time. Mostly because it doesn't have the "wax" issue, for oven "Poaching" and such, the wax can melt, and stuff. Or something like that.

 

[Lotus]

Hey! I was just discussing this with my husband! Would you say it's the same thing as butcher paper? I've never noticed, but he says it has a shiny side on the inside. Maybe, here in Portland, they just don't bother to sell the reynold's freezer paper. But you can definitely find butcher paper in rolls, here in places.

So, Butcher paper?

 

[tryanything]

I live in Oregon also and never could find freezer paper either. I just use parchment paper and not had any issues with that. I haven't tried butcher paper to see how it is. I'm moving to Cleveland next month, maybe they'll have freezer paper their, though again, I have no problem using parchment paper. Oh I just found out WSP is located in Cleveland. Awesomeness!!!!!

 

[Lotus]

Oh, yay! Anything, I'm so glad it isn't just me! Oh, you have no idea how confused I was, that everyone seemed to be so familiar with this item. Parchment paper it is. I most often have wax paper (mostly because it's cheaper) on hand, so that's where I put my soap right out of the mold, just before I cut them. I've had no problems. But, for curing, I use tea towels, per advice (as I have so many. I use them in the kitchen) over my chromed metal racks. I'd love to find something a little simpler for the last thing, though. I feel like tea towels (although not very absorbent), might be absorbing them things I don't want them to absorb, a bit.

 

[Relle]

That is really weird that OR doesn't carry freezer paper.:-? What do people there use to wrap meats and stuff in before putting in the freezer?

We don't have freezer paper in Australia and all we do is put the meat in freezer bags and straight in the freezer, no wrapping. If the meat is sealed you shouldn't get freezer burn, only if its been in there to long that might happen. We use to have a butcher shop and our butchers paper is paper so no good for lining soap moulds.:sad:

 

[eyebright]

Have tried looking at Cash and Carry?

 

[Hazel]

DOS isn't mold or fungus. It's as DeeAnna already mentioned - oxidation of oils. Also, according to Kevin Dunn's experiment a high superfat or a large lye discount doesn't contribute to DOS. For people who are concerned about rancidity, I recommend reading his article discussing the results of the experiment. http://cavemanchemistry.com/HsmgDos2006.pdf

The sunflower oil which I bought at the grocery had a shelf life of one year but all oils will start to oxidize once they are opened. However, cold pressed and unrefined sunflower oil has a high vitamin E content so it is more resistant to oxidation. Adding either rosemary oleoresin extract (ROE) or adding more tocopherol (vitamin E) into freshly opened containers of oils will help to extend the shelf life even further. (Unfortunately, I didn't keep the link to the person who performed this experiment and I can't find the article again.) I kept regular sunflower oil in the frig for months past the "shelf life", used it at 10% in recipes, used 7%-8% lye discount and never experienced DOS. (BTW, I did not add any vitamin E to it when I opened it because of its natural E content.) I have switched to using high oleic sunflower oil which is more stable than regular sunflower oil and I occasionally use it at a higher percentage - sometimes up to 20%. I've never put the HOSO into the frig and still haven't experienced DOS.

Some articles which people might find helpful.

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2011/04/question-how-do-anti-oxidants-affect.html

http://www.fromnaturewithlove.com/library/storagevegetableoils.asp

BTW, I tried using wax paper once to line a mold. The soap got so hot the wax paper melded into the loaf. I had a terrible time trying to peel it off. It kept shredding into little pieces as I pulled. I eventually gave up and cut the remaining paper off.

 

[Lotus]

DOS isn't mold or fungus. It's as DeeAnna already mentioned - oxidation of oils. Also, according to Kevin Dunn's experiment a high superfat or a large lye discount doesn't contribute to DOS. For people who are concerned about rancidity, I recommend reading his article discussing the results of the experiment. http://cavemanchemistry.com/HsmgDos2006.pdf

The sunflower oil which I bought at the grocery had a shelf life of one year but all oils will start to oxidize once they are opened. However, cold pressed and unrefined sunflower oil has a high vitamin E content so it is more resistant to oxidation. Adding either rosemary oleoresin extract (ROE) or adding more tocopherol (vitamin E) into freshly opened containers of oils will help to extend the shelf life even further. (Unfortunately, I didn't keep the link to the person who performed this experiment and I can't find the article again.) I kept regular sunflower oil in the frig for months past the "shelf life", used it at 10% in recipes, used 7%-8% lye discount and never experienced DOS. (BTW, I did not add any vitamin E to it when I opened it because of its natural E content.) I have switched to using high oleic sunflower oil which is more stable than regular sunflower oil and I occasionally use it at a higher percentage - sometimes up to 20%. I've never put the HOSO into the frig and still haven't experienced DOS.

Some articles which people might find helpful.

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2011/04/question-how-do-anti-oxidants-affect.html

http://www.fromnaturewithlove.com/library/storagevegetableoils.asp

BTW, I tried using wax paper once to line a mold. The soap got so hot the wax paper melded into the loaf. I had a terrible time trying to peel it off. It kept shredding into little pieces as I pulled. I eventually gave up and cut the remaining paper off.

My soap making book mentions that DOS is actually not a problem in soap, and is merely a cosmetic issue. I haven't read this anywhere else, so feel free to disagree.

Hazel, thank you so much! This is great information. I love it!!

About the wax paper. I've never tried lining my molds with it, but I've yet to use a mold that needs lining, and to be honest, I'd rather not have to. I'm assuming parchment paper might be an excellent alternative here, as it definitely is different than wax paper. Good to know, though, in case I ever were incline to line a mold with wax paper. Thank you.

 

[nebetmiw]

My soap making book mentions that DOS is actually not a problem in soap, and is merely a cosmetic issue. I haven't read this anywhere else, so feel free to disagree.

Hazel, thank you so much! This is great information. I love it!!

About the wax paper. I've never tried lining my molds with it, but I've yet to use a mold that needs lining, and to be honest, I'd rather not have to. I'm assuming parchment paper might be an excellent alternative here, as it definitely is different than wax paper. Good to know, though, in case I ever were incline to line a mold with wax paper. Thank you.

That is true it is just a cometic issue as all oils are soapified. Where the ranic does become an issue is cooking or for massage oil making. It does not hurt the soap at all. Just looks weird.

 

[Hazel]

I agree with the above posts about DOS being mostly a cosmetic issue. I suppose I've been very lucky because I've only experienced DOS on one bar which was over a year old. It was just a small orange dot and it did smell a little off when I sniffed the area. It was a simple recipe of olive, coconut and shea and I had used 5% lye discount. I used it in the shower and it was fine. So, it was mainly a cosmetic issue for me. However, I wouldn't want to give away soap which could possibly go rancid since I know my family don't always use the soap right away.

However, rancidity does become more of an issue in lotion making and as nebetmiw mentioned, in massage oils.

 

[Kay]

Hey! I was just discussing this with my husband! Would you say it's the same thing as butcher paper? I've never noticed, but he says it has a shiny side on the inside. Maybe, here in Portland, they just don't bother to sell the reynold's freezer paper. But you can definitely find butcher paper in rolls, here in places.

So, Butcher paper?

Yes, Butcher paper! It's the same thing.

 

[Ruthie]

Yes, butcher paper.