Beginner's Question

[AngelMomma]

I believe that Alchemy & Ashes single oil experiment showed the same results with the grapeseed oil. You might could find her blog post. I have no personal experience with grapeseed oil.

I LOVE sunflower in leave on hand creams!!! But because of it being a soft oil and potential DOS I haven't ever tried it in CP. I do wonder now if I could find a small bottle of High O Sunflower oil. I surely would try it if I did.

I haven't ever tried the veg Crisco. But I love the hardness of tallow and lard also. So I do use the WM store brand shortening that is made with tallow and palm in some recipes. It does work great. I really don't use shortening of any kind as food though :/

 

[Kay]

As someone mentioned, the oil properties themselves are different from how they act in soap. However, it's still good info. On Swift's blog there are lists of carrier and exotic oil properties in the right hand column under free download PDFs. You have to scroll down a bit. You can also check your library for soaping books. I have the Soapmaker's Companion and Soap Naturally and both books list what the different oils bring to soap.

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/

WOW! Thanks for the link to that blog! Lots of info there! Know what I'll be doing today! More READING!

 

[adoptapitbull]

From everything I've ever googled, everyone seems to think they are greasy. Is it because you are using them in a soap that leaves them NOT feeling greasy? Or is it the fact that you are using organic shea? I'd like more info on this please.:?:

I think you are confusing shea in lotions/butter with shea in soap.

Butters in soap should never feel greasy if you are soaping correctly. And if they do, it's probably because your fragrance oil is leeching out.

 

[Kay]

I think you are confusing shea in lotions/butter with shea in soap.

Butters in soap should never feel greasy if you are soaping correctly. And if they do, it's probably because your fragrance oil is leeching out.

Yes, I was. I'm still learning. Everything I had read, and tried left it feeling greasy on my skin, but I had never used it in soap, really for that very reason. I'll be adding it to soap from now on!

What about grapeseed oil? I know it has a short shelf life, so would you wonderful folks recommend that be relegated to small batches of lotion? Is there another oil 'out there' that has the same benefits of grapeseed oil with a longer shelf life?

BTW, this is solely used by myself and my hubby. I have no desire to mass produce to sell.

 

[three_little_fishes]

I think everyone has given great info and links! Everything brings something different to the table. Have fun with it and you'll learn a lot!

 

[Hazel]

I had bought some grapeseed oil a while back but then came across a comment that it can spoil quickly in soap. Just wondering if that is so, and if it is even worth using?

What about grapeseed oil? I know it has a short shelf life, so would you wonderful folks recommend that be relegated to small batches of lotion? Is there another oil 'out there' that has the same benefits of grapeseed oil with a longer shelf life?

I've also heard grapeseed contributes to DOS so I've never bought any to try. On the other hand, I've read conflicting opinions about it. I think people have mentioned it's all right to use in at a small percentage like 5% to 10%. I know for sure one member mentioned getting DOS but I don't remember if she mentioned what percentage she used.

One way to extend its shelf life is to add rosemary oleoresin extract or Vitamin E to it when it's first opened. Also, storing it in a cool place or frig would help to extend the shelf life. I think using it in lotions would work as long as you used it up quickly. Off the top of my head, the only oil I can think of that would be close to grapeseed in lotions would be hazelnut since it is also slightly astringent.

However, high oleic sunflower oil has similar properties to grapeseed if you wanted a substitute for it in soapmaking.

 

[Lotus]

I don't know about DOS with grapeseed, I've never experienced it, but I do know it should be used in small amounts, simply because it's such a soft oil, and also it behaves like a butter, very moisturizing. I love it, personally in my soaps.

 

[Sandraruba]

Do those DOS do anything bad to your soap? Or is it just esthetically?

I do use Grapeseed oil in my soaps and I've never seen them btw.

I do have some pinkish spots in my coconut oil soap I made two days ago. It does not contain any grapeseed oil.

 

[Michael Faulds]

There is nothing worse than going to get soap out of storage and finding it with orange icky DOS spots.

What is DOS and how does it happen?

 

[nebetmiw]

I have very oily skin. It is one reason I make my own soap. Each persom is different and what also matters is your Water hardness. I use a very basic 3 oil formula and it works for us here. Since we are a farm and have pigs I use lard as one of my bases. It is closer to our skin PH than many other oils and will not clog pores like some. I can not use olive oil just for that reason of clogging pores. My main formula is CO, lard and safflower. I tend to use a higher percent of CO than most but it is not drying to me.

One thing about making soap it is a learning process of what works for you. You will have to make and test the soap to see what you like. People go threw many changes in their formulas the first 2 years sometimes more before they settle on a base. Not too mention you will have mistakes like bad batches. Reading back post you can do searches on eash type of oil. But rememr it is all a matter of their opinion, you will be different in how it works for you.

 

[Kay]

What is DOS and how does it happen?

DOS stands for Dreaded Orange Spots. Basically that means 'There's a fungus among us' lol! Actually it's mold, but that dosen't rhyme well. lol! It isn't a good thing! The spots can be various colors, but you'll know it when you have it.

From what I've read, it can be caused by rancid oil, humidity, high superfatting, or other 'bad things' in soap. Ways to combat this are to lower superfatting, be sure to use fresh oils, be careful about using oils that go rancid quickly, using distilled water instead of plain tap water, curing soap in cool dry location, out of sunlight. Rosemary EO is said to be effective at combating DOS also.

 

[DeeAnna]

DOS (Dreaded Orange Spots) is a visual sign that some of the free fats in the soap are oxidizing -- becoming rancid. It can be just a single orange or yellowish "freckle" or two, or it can cover the entire bar. With light DOS, often there is little or no change except for the "freckles", but if DOS is extensive, the soap can have an unpleasant odor and/or changes in texture (softness, sliminess).

From what I am reading, DOS can be triggered by a lot of factors, and this causes a lot of confusion, consternation, frustration, and debate amongst soapers. Here are some:

high superfat levels (this is a controversial issue. I choose to keep superfat at 5-7% for most recipes, unless my recipe calls for 100% saturated, stable fats)
type of fats in the recipe -- saturated fats are more stable, polyunsaturated fats oxidize quicker
metallic contamination from contact with metal surfaces or from impurities in lye or water (store soap on a non-metallic surface, use good quality lye, use distilled water or rain water)
moisture content in the air and in the soap (allow soap to cure properly, keep soap as dry as possible in storage)
decomposition of organic impurities or organic additives in the soap (organic is used here in the sense of "formerly alive")
increased rate of oxidation caused by some fragrances, colorants, or essential oils
exposure to light, excessive temperature, and oxygen (don't overheat your oil when making soap, store soap in a dark, dry, cool place)

This is totally my opinion here -- I am gradually getting the feeling that many if not most DOS infections occur fairly soon, let's say within a year after making. If the soap has no DOS after a year or so, the soap will probably be fairly stable using reasonable storage conditions.

What to do with soap that has DOS is a matter of debate. Some people are grossed out by any DOS whatsoever. IMO, a spot or two of DOS is basically a cosmetic issue, like mold on cheese. I would not sell such a soap, but I will pare out the dark spots and plan to use the soap as soon as possible either in the shower or in laundry soap. A bar with really bad DOS symptoms -- I would probably toss it.

As always with things soapy, YMMV! --DeeAnna

 

[Michael Faulds]

Thank you so much everybody!

 

[tomatotim]

I'm going to do my first batch soon. please tell me if this will make a usable bar soap
olive oil 20% 12.8oz
sunflower oil 20% 12.8oz
castor oil 10% 6.4oz
coconut oil 25% 16oz
almond oil 10% 6.4
grape seed oil 5% 3.2oz
cocoa butter 10% 6.4oz
I'm going for a 4 pound batch. 23.oz water 9.3oz lye ow and yes I made this recipe up. I just happen to have those ingredients in my kitchem

 

[Kay]

I think you need to be aware that Sunflower and grapeseed oil both have a shelf life of about 6 months. I've read that Sunflower can cause DOS in some cases, so I'm personally keeping that out of my soaps. Better safe than sorry are my thoughts. But I've never used it either, so maybe someone with more experience will come on here. If it were me, I'd drop the Sunflower and up the olive oil. Something else you might consider is doing a smaller batch until you find something you really like. If you end up not liking this, you'll have used a lot of ingredients. I'm personally playing with 2 lb batches for right now.

 

[Ruthie]

I'm going to do my first batch soon. please tell me if this will make a usable bar soap
olive oil 20% 12.8oz
sunflower oil 20% 12.8oz
castor oil 10% 6.4oz
coconut oil 25% 16oz
almond oil 10% 6.4
grape seed oil 5% 3.2oz
cocoa butter 10% 6.4oz
I'm going for a 4 pound batch. 23.oz water 9.3oz lye ow and yes I made this recipe up. I just happen to have those ingredients in my kitchem

If it were mine I'd down the castor to 5% and increase the olive just a bit. But there is nothing wrong with these oils as you have it planned. I use Sunflower oil all the time and never had any trouble, though I do keep it at 10%. Also it seems to be a bit low on the superfat. I'd go down on my lye to about 8.8 if I were making this.

Oh, and I'm also in favor of starting with smaller recipes til you find just the combination you like.

 

[chicklet]

tomatotim welcome to the forum and the wonderful (and addicting) world of soapmaking. You asked if your recipe will make a usable bar of soap - I ran it thru soapcalc and it seems just a little high in lye at 5% SF with 38% water. You may have run it thru a different calculator or have used a different SF %, I don't know. There's nothing wrong with making up your own recipes, just be sure you run every recipe, even one you got from a book or online, through a soap calculator to make sure about the lye. Having said that, though, I do think it advisable to stick to just a few ingredients for your first batches, and using someone else's tried and true recipe is also advisable. If you have problems, it's easier to pinpoint the problem when you just use 3 or 4 simple oils. If you've read this entire thread, you've seen comments about sunflower oil and grapeseed oil so you already know others' opinions about them. Also, most people do start out doing small 1 or 2 pound batches because it can get expensive to make large batches and then having to throw them out, but the size of the batch is your choice. Good luck and feel free to ask more questions - this forum is a wonderful learning community.

ETA: I see Ruthie replied as I was typing. She got the same amount of lye as I did when I ran it thru soapcalc. The amount of lye in your recipe does not give you much wiggle room in case your measurements are not exact. I'm guessing your recipe is about 3% SF which is cutting it close and increasing the chance that your batch will be lye heavy and not pass the zap test.

 

[nebetmiw]

I'm going to do my first batch soon. please tell me if this will make a usable bar soap
olive oil 20% 12.8oz
sunflower oil 20% 12.8oz
castor oil 10% 6.4oz
coconut oil 25% 16oz
almond oil 10% 6.4
grape seed oil 5% 3.2oz
cocoa butter 10% 6.4oz
I'm going for a 4 pound batch. 23.oz water 9.3oz lye ow and yes I made this recipe up. I just happen to have those ingredients in my kitchem

You might have issues with this not hardening for you as you have way more soft oils than hard oils. I would work at most to start with 4 oils like Co, OO, castor and almond or sunflower. Almond will last better than sunflower. Sunflower will go rancid faster. If you want to use the cocoa butter that is fine but since you have not made soap you need to know what trace looks like and a butter can throw that off since it is thicker to start and can give a false trace effect. Keep it simple. Keep superfat at 5 or above to start too. Anything lower and you are asking for problems.

 

[Lotus]

DOS stands for Dreaded Orange Spots. Basically that means 'There's a fungus among us' lol! Actually it's mold, but that dosen't rhyme well. lol! It isn't a good thing! The spots can be various colors, but you'll know it when you have it.

From what I've read, it can be caused by rancid oil, humidity, high superfatting, or other 'bad things' in soap. Ways to combat this are to lower superfatting, be sure to use fresh oils, be careful about using oils that go rancid quickly, using distilled water instead of plain tap water, curing soap in cool dry location, out of sunlight. Rosemary EO is said to be effective at combating DOS also.

I thought it was Vitamins A, C, and E, as well as Rosemary oil extract (ROE).

I suppose ROE and Rosemary essential oil have similar stabilizing effects?

 

[chicklet]

I don't think Rosemary Oleoresin Extract (ROE) is the same thing as Rosemary essential oil (Rosemary EO) although I can certainly see why we interchange them with the letters being so similar. Here's an article from about.com about ROE.

http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/soapglossary/f/What-Is-Rosemary-Oleoresin-Extract.htm

I've never used ROE, but I do try to remember to put a few drops of vitamin E in each new bottle of soft oils as I open them. I don't know if it helps prevent DOS - I've only had one case when I used 17% or 19% (I forget!) sunflower oil in a batch - but it can't hurt. I haven't been soaping a full year yet so I guess I could still have some DOS show up, but I do a few things to try and prevent it - I only use fresh oils, I stick with basic oils like coconut, lard, tallow, olive, castor, a little shea in a couple of batches (and I do put avacado in shampoo bars), and I store my soap on pegboard that has been covered with freezer paper. I built a curing rack out of PVC and the covered pegboard is what I use for shelves. Air can circulate around each bar this way so maybe that will help prevent DOS. The bars don't touch each other. They're spaced precisely 1/4 inch apart. (Okay, just kidding about the spacing. Well, at least the "precisely" part.) Someone here thought their DOS came from storing the soap directly on cardboard - makes sense that something from the cardboard leached out. If I fill up my curing rack I plan to store my soap in freezer paper lined boxes. When I get a bedroom full of boxes of soap, I pray that someone will come and conduct an intervention.