Ash - do you know the secret?

[surf girl]

I know you can "embrace" the ash and all that, but sometimes, I just. don't. want. any.

People seem to have all sorts of theories on why and when it happens and how to avoid it - cover the mold and don't peek, insulate and gel, etc. I'm interested to know if there is truly a consistent way to avoid it.

I thought a little poll might help sort it out. For those of you who can avoid it if you want to, what do you do? Be as detailed as possible. For those of you who get it when you don't want it, have you tried the things the successful-in-ash-avoidance folks have done?

Thanks!

 

[jcandleattic]

I voted the second vote.
I almost never get ash but think I have narrowed it down to when I do get it I've soaped with water that is not as "pure" and I've left the soap uncovered.
We have a water softener and also a reverse osmosis in the kitchen and I use that water instead of tap water. Whenever we have been slack about filtering the osmosis OR I soap with our regular soft tap water I get ash. Also if I do that and forget to cover with saran wrap I'll get it as well.

Never have I gotten ash using filtered osmosis or distilled water and had the soap covered with wrap...

 

[Deda]

Great topic! I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's ideas.

I think the reason I don't get ash on my soaps is lack of condensation. I soap cold, cold oils (RT) and cold lye. Then straight into the coldest part of the fridge. I noticed that if I don't refrigerate my cold method soaps get some condensation, even if they don't gel - then they ash. I started refrigerating my soaps in the summer to because of the high humidity. Sooo, I'm thinking that it might have something to do with it.

Reverse seems to hold true also, I have better luck avoiding ash with gelled soaps if I use a higher temp lye and still the RT oils. I wrap the molds in blankets and lay them on a heating pad near the baseboard heat or the fireplace, after a few hours I remove the heat sources but keep them insulated. In the summer I will toss them in the oven heated to 150 and turned off for 6 to 10 hours. They gel, but cool slowly so they don't get a layer of condensation.

I think the secret to ash avoidance is in avoiding condensation, whatever temperature.

Just my opinion. I'm also curious about the amount of water in the soap in relation to condensation. Any ideas?

 

[Pug Mom]

Reverse seems to hold true also, I have better luck avoiding ash with gelled soaps if I use a higher temp lye and still the RT oils.

I thought the lye and the oils had to be the same temp before combining them? I kill myself getting them to be almost the exact same temp before pouring the lye water into the oils...

 

[jcandleattic]

Reverse seems to hold true also, I have better luck avoiding ash with gelled soaps if I use a higher temp lye and still the RT oils.

I thought the lye and the oils had to be the same temp before combining them? I kill myself getting them to be almost the exact same temp before pouring the lye water into the oils...

I've never used a thermometer to soap with. I touch the outside of the lye container and if it's warm to the touch (not hot) I figure it's good enough and the oils are usually warm to cool to the touch as well. I have no idea if they are close to the same temp or not, but I would assume not since they have different temps to the touch when I combine them. I personally have never had a problem with this...

 

[Deda]

I thought the lye and the oils had to be the same temp before combining them? I kill myself getting them to be almost the exact same temp before pouring the lye water into the oils...

You can do it anyway you want. Personally I haven't paid attention to temps when soapmaking other than 'hot' or 'cold' in a long, long time.

I know some soapers are quite diligent about getting lye and oils to the same temperatures.
If that works for you, then soap on!

Saponification is going to happen no matter what temp you mix your lye/water and oil.

 

[Pug Mom]

I thought the lye and the oils had to be the same temp before combining them? I kill myself getting them to be almost the exact same temp before pouring the lye water into the oils...

You can do it anyway you want. Personally I haven't paid attention to temps when soapmaking other than 'hot' or 'cold' in a long, long time.

I know some soapers are quite diligent about getting lye and oils to the same temperatures.
If that works for you, then soap on!

Saponification is going to happen no matter what temp you mix your lye/water and oil.

Seriously? I thought I would blow things up if they weren't within a few degrees of one another.... Learn something new everyday!!

 

[surf girl]

This is excellent!! Thanks guys!

OK, so I will keep a bit of a running tally of abbreviated ash/no ash theories and update as we go.

1. (jcandleattic) Can avoid ash by using filtered or distilled water and covering the soap.

2. (Deda) Can avoid ash by soaping cold (RT) and putting the soap in the fridge. These soaps don't gel.

3. (Deda) Can avoid ash in gelled soaps by letting them cool slowly, either by insulating with blankets or allowing them to cool in the turned-off oven.

jcandle - do you cover with saran touching the soap, or just close to the soap? If close, how close? And is your mold closed as well? What temp do you tend to soap at? Is your soap just left at room temp, or do you insulate, or use the oven, or...?

Deda, how warm (roughly) are your oils when you go for a gelled soap? Do you ever peek at your soap before taking off the towels etc? Do you cover the soap in any way?

Both of you - what lye concentrations do you use?

Theories as to ash formation:

1. (jcandleattic) Type of water (will get ash if soft tap water) and air contact with the soap (will get ash if not wrapped in saran).

2. (Deda) Water condensation on the saponifying soap (will get ash if soap is not put in fridge in summer and condensation forms on it).

 

[surf girl]

Oh, and I guess I didn't post my own experiences. I haven't really found a way to avoid ash, which is why I am working on this. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't. I pretty much use saran on all the soap, sometimes right on the surface, sometimes a little above; sometimes I get ash, sometimes I don't. I soap as low as 26%, up to 35%. I unmold anywhere from 12 to 24 hours after pouring - that's one thing I don't record, and I should. I pour slabs and I use milk cartons. I rarely get ash on cut surfaces of the slab soaps, but sometimes I do. I never get ash on the cut surfaces or the wall surfaces of the milk carton soap.

So I'm all hit-and-miss.

 

[jcandleattic]

jcandle - do you cover with saran touching the soap, or just close to the soap? If close, how close? And is your mold closed as well? What temp do you tend to soap at? Is your soap just left at room temp, or do you insulate, or use the oven, or...?

I cover with the saran slightly touching the soap. Just barely laid on there, and then I cover with a lid. I'm not sure exactly what temp I soap at. Warm to the touch on both my lye and oils pans. And it depends on if I want the soap to gel or not as to if I insulate. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. For me I have determined that it is really whether I soap with tap or filtered water and whether it's covered or not as to whether I get ash or not.
When not doing these things it doesn't matter if the soap has gelled or not, I'll get ash. If I do this regiment then I don't get ash whether gelled or not.
I hope that makes sense...

 

[MikeInPdx]

Seriously? I thought I would blow things up if they weren't within a few degrees of one another.... Learn something new everyday!!

Nah.....I pour smoking hot, and I mean SMOKING HOT lye (just where it's clear, into room temperature oils, and then start stirring like a madman. If I'm working with a lot of hard oils, I will partially melt them.....no problems so far.

(I used to try and make sure they were the same temperature....it's a myth....I think it was perpetuated by a lady who wrote one of the first home soaping books and believed it.)

ETA: I think maybe Deda is onto something.....I've noticed that my refrigerated eucalyptus EO, and my oven gelled (CPOP) soaps almost never ash.

 

[topcat]

I have had ash on top of a slab divider mould, covered only with towels that gelled well. It had a green oxide coloured top layer and had a salty FO blend in the base uncoloured part but no FO in the top coloured layer.

My only other ash event was a buttermilk & shea recipe which I attempted to keep ungelled by placing in my slab divider mould in the fridge in a plastic shopping bag. Checked after an hour or so and the centre of the mould was gelling, so I popped it in the freezer for overnight. Unmoulded two days later and found that ash developed on the gelled areas (on top of the bars) and not on the ungelled areas.

With both of these I soaped with the oils and lye water at 38 degrees celcius (blood temp approx) and my room temp was around 25 - 28 degrees celcius.

Here is a pic of the second, half gelled batch:-

Tanya

 

[Maria]

With cold process, I got ash on all but the recipes that contained beeswax. I prefer hot process, the bars are a uniform size and no more ash.

 

[Tahara]

I mostly CPOP and when I first began I would to get ash all the time. Since I use log molds, I would just cut that thin layer off that side of the bar. Then I started covering the exposed portion of the soap with wax paper and I haven't had any ash since.

 

[tangled_panda]

I've only had Ash on one batch of soap, it was the one that I put honey in. Don't know if that is what caused it but I think it super heated. I don't watch the temp of my oils or lye mix and sometimes I wrap, sometimes I don't. But the honey batch was the only one to ash.

 

[surf girl]

Thanks for the ongoing replies! Here's the updated tally:

1. (jcandleattic) Can avoid ash by using filtered or distilled water and covering the soap. Gel/no gel doesn't matter; insulated or not doesn't matter.

2. (Deda & Mike) Can avoid ash by soaping cold (RT) and putting the soap in the fridge. These soaps don't gel.

3. (Deda & Mike) Can avoid ash in gelled soaps by letting them cool slowly, either by insulating with blankets or allowing them to cool in the turned-off oven.

4. (Maria) Can avoid ash by including beeswax in CP recipes.

5. (Tahara) Can avoid ash by covering the exposed soap with waxed paper.



Theories as to ash formation:

1. (jcandleattic) Type of water (will get ash if soft tap water) and air contact with the soap (will get ash if not wrapped in saran).

2. (Deda) Water condensation on the saponifying soap (will get ash if soap is not put in fridge in summer and condensation forms on it).

3. (tangled_panda) Honey or overheating may contribute to ash (has not gotten ash on wrapped/unwrapped batches except for one that had honey).

 

[surf girl]

Hey, those of you who get no ash - how much water do you use (i.e. what is your lye concentration?)

Oh, and how long do you wait to unmold? And if you wrap/insulate, do you peek at your insulated/wrapped soaps before unmolding?

Cheers!

 

[xyxoxy]

I usually soap in PVC tubes and have never had ash... but I suppose that's because there is so little surface that is exposed to the air.
Sometimes about 1/4 inch of the top has slightly discolored to a lighter shade, but it is certainly not ash. More likely it is due to being less insulated.

I do cover and wrap my molds in blankets to gel and cool slowly, though I'm starting to experiment with non-gelled soaps.

My ingredients and lye concentrations are all over the place.

I too am one who takes great pains to get lye and oils to the same temperature... so I guess I'll have to loosen up on that a bit and see if I get the same results. I read it in one of the Cavitch books and took it as gospel. I do believe controlling temperature can help slow or speed trace when you are working with certain ingredients that require a little more or less time.

 

[IrishLass]

Ash- it's one of those stubborn mysteries of a soaper's life! And methods that seem to work at preventing ash for one soaper totally fail in preventing it for another soaper. Grrr!

The worse case of ash I ever got was when I tried to prevent gel in a soap by placing it in the fridge overnight. Yikes! The ash on that baby was so thick that as I was scraping it off with a vegetable peeler, it took swipe after swipe after swipe after swipe before I ever finally hit real soap. It was unbelievable! It was like licking a Tootsie Pop to finally reach the Tootsie Roll center of it. Needless to say, my soaps from that batch were a wee bit on the thin side when I finally got done scraping.

There have been many discussions about ash on another forum I belong to and there are a lot of theories, but still no 100% consensus by one and all on the exact cause and remedy. There seems to be a leaning, though, towards the theory that says ash is caused by extreme temperature changes, like when the saponifying soap cools down too fast. I kinda tend to lean towards that theory if only because it makes the most sense to my inquiring mind at this time.

IrishLass

 

[surf girl]

IrishLass? With that nasty ash batch (say that five times fast did you ) did you put the soap in the fridge right away, or did it sit out somewhere prior to going into the fridge overnight?